Ask HN: How can we solve the loneliness epidemic?

Burn capitalism to the ground?

Dogs?

This might be more of a gen Z and zillennial thing but the embedding of black & white purity tests in almost all social settings is a big factor.

You must have opinion and they all must align perfectly like mine. Case and point people's behaviors around the 2024 election.

Russian? You better be the most outspoken anti Putin-ist . Jewish? You better be sorry for the Zionists at every turn. Queer? Oh sorry you work for Google and even if your department has nothing to do with the current bads you're bad too, stop stealing from artists with AI. Those are some extreme and blatant examples but ones I've witnessed cause people to get excommunicated no matter how bleeding of a heart they have for the causes people rhetorically crucify them over.

I'm not going to pretend you should be fine if say, a literal unironic nazi is trying to cozy up in your book club, or some clown is constantly bringing up "hot takes" needlessly on your baseball club. But these constant purity tests typically remove all nuance and leave both sides heavily alienated, leaving many to fall into a hedgehog's dilemma of fearing interactions lest they're accused of things they simply are not.

I've been thinking recently about the scale at which it seems the vast vast majority of people participate in close to zero public discussion online and what a bummer it is.

Basically all discussion platforms are broken for any sort of long term meaningful discussion which I think is at least part of the problem. Even this thread and this comment just the fact that the thread is now 4 hours old the amount of views and chance of getting many responses drops precipitously. On most platforms unless you are someone with a large following you basically have to think like a marketer and post often and early on posts to stand a chance of getting a discussion going. It's always so ephemeral too. Even though posts on a platform like HN on reddit still exist and you can comment on old threads probably 99% of the activity happens in the first 6 or so hours and then it largely ends.

It makes me miss forums where at least you had long lived threads with simple time based post order and a good chance of replies. This doesn't seem to exist on only platforms now and forums have largely faded away.

The fragmentation of discussion has also messed things up. For example yesterday I was listening to a HardFork podcast episode which is a fairly popular pod, topping the charts in at least the tech category, and after listening I wanted to check for discussion around the episode and probably leave a comment or two. I assume this episode had to have gotten at least in the low tens of thousands of plays though perhaps that is way off. I went searching for discussion and basically found a largely dead subreddit for the podcast with no threads being regularly created for the episode and an empty comment section on nytimes which any site comment section is a useless place for discussion anyways. The pod is also posted on youtube which the youtube comment section had the most activity of anything I found but the youtube comment section and the way it is structured/operates is perhaps the most useless of all the platforms for trying to have any discussion. I just don't understand how if at least say ten thousand people listened to the episode surely at least 1% would be interested in discussing it and 100+ people going back and forth would be a large, active, healthy discussion somewhere.

Even threads that seem "active" on sites like HN or Reddit in the context of the actual audience sizes are shockingly small and confuse me. For example The Pitt season 2 just premiered and posted 5.4 million viewers, the subreddit post ep discussion currently has 5.3k comments which is quite high for a show. That is a joke of a percentage though, 0.1%! and even worse in the context of people that are posting probably post more than once in the thread. I understand many and even most people not wanting to post to discuss a show they just watched but how the hell is less than 1 in a thousand!

This post got long which also damages the chance of any engagement due to TLDR culture.

The basis of community is sacrifice. It must be. If it is all about me and only what I want, then I am alone. In any coming together, giving up some personal desires or preferences must inevitably happen.

For in choosing to gather, we are choosing a time and place. I forsake any other places I could be at that time. I give time that I could have been doing something else. More than that, I am choosing to be with people who may irritate me, or play music I don’t like, or say things I wish they hadn’t. In short, they are not me, and so I’ve got to put up with them.

In doing this, we make space for all of the benefits of community—of hearing about that movie that you’d also like to see, of learning of a new recipe you’d like to try, being amazed to hear the personal story of a friend who inspires you to be more like them. You receive encouragement to keep pursuing the highest good, as best as you can see it— And these people help you see it better. You receive real help when you need it.

The cross is at the center of the church community, and in putting it there we worship this ideal leader, who gave up everything in order to gather his people.

In my short lifetime, I have seen how we are drifting further away from this beloved community. Church attendance is down, loneliness is up. Anxiety and depression have never been higher. During the COVID era lockdowns, we experienced what the utter loss of community feels like. Friendships were broken, churches disbanded, people moved, families were tested. Some came out stronger, and some of us are still recovering.

Years before that I began to suspect that media is stealing us from each other. It’s when we spend more time on Facebook or X than socializing with real people. It’s when we’d rather watch Netflix or YouTube than call an old friend. It’s when we’d rather watch a movie that makes us feel compassion, than to feel actual compassion for our neighbor in need. When we believe the lie, we use screens for a stimulating and pointless tickling of the mind.

It’s more than our individual responsibility. This is a collective action problem. It’s when we don’t call that friend because we believe that they would rather be watching their own show, so we may as well be watching ours. It’s when you would prefer the benefits of meeting in person, but the meeting is only virtual. It’s when teens feel pressure to join social media, because everybody else is doing it. It’s when there’s nobody to play with or hang out with, because everybody else is on their own screen, doing their own thing. Last year, our family decided to rebel against this. We gave up “alone screen time” for Lent. If we were on screens, we would only do it together.

Technology allows us to bypass those near us to connect to those afar. Before screens, the automobile allowed us to do this in the physical world. We could use the new cars and highways to move to the suburbs where we have a garage, nice neighbors and no city problems. We don’t often count the social cost of car culture because it is so pervasive. The cost and effects of parking on the built environment, social isolation, declines in public health, and daily deaths from car crashes are costs we don’t often think that we all have incurred in adopting the car as a technology.

As Jesus walked by, a man on the side of the road cried out: “Son of David, have mercy on me!” When he had the option to bypass the bad part of town, he chose to walk straight through it and engage the people there.

When we unquestioningly adopt every new technology, terrible things can happen. This year, a remote jungle village got satellite internet for the first time. And now many of them are addicted to pornography and social media, which is an even bigger problem in a culture where if you don’t hunt and farm, you don’t eat. In contrast, each Amish community has leaders who decide to adopt a technology based on if it will positively or negatively impact their community. They are open to it, but they are mindful to keep the health of the community first. Had the jungle village taken this approach, their community unquestionably would be healthier.

For most of human history, being in a family and in a face-to-face community was core to our identity and was a non-negotiable requirement for survival. It is only recently we have been able to negotiate new terms with our human limitations. I hope I have helped you see that with every gain of a new technology, there is also a loss. The deception and the lie is that there is no loss. But we must count the cost. For the benefit of our communities, it is time to re-negotiate our relationship with technology.

Many of these comments recommend church. While valid if it works for you, it doesn't mesh with me.

I found community through a shared enjoyment of an activity that must be done as a group. Grass roots motorsports in my case, but any activity that needs you to be there with others should work the same. The key is that you should enjoy it and you should have time to interact with people. I like to make car go vroom, but generalize the approach and it should work.

My first season, I won an event with a hero run that sent me from 5th to 1st. When I parked, a random guy stuck his head in my window and started hyping me up for it. I still think about that 3 years later and it still makes me feel good. That feeling made me want to do that for others.

I started approaching random people I'd seen before and just starting a conversation. It was rough the first few times but it gets easier. You already have a shared activity so just start with that. I made a point to remember people's names or at least their car (bad with names, but cars stick for some reason). If the name didn't stick, I'll ask again next time and maybe bring up their car so they know I remember them. When I know their name, I use it when I see them again. Maybe just "Hey bob!" as I'm passing, but something to let them know someone there knows them and cares enough to say hi. They're not a stranger at least. If I haven't seen them in a while, I ask how they've been and spend a bit more effort on the conversation than just a "hey".

It started with the regulars. Now I'm looking for the new faces. I know stuff and they need to know that stuff, so it's easy to talk. If they come back, they should be able to find someone to talk to so I introduce them to some of the other regulars.

I look for people eating lunch alone and I go talk to them. Maybe 2 to 5 minutes, maybe longer. Depends on them. Sometimes I'm awkward. Sometimes I say dumb stuff. Whatever. I'm trying to help these people not be alone at a social event if they don't want to be. If they do, that's fine too, but I'll try again next time.

Some people are closed off and don't really want to talk. That's fine. I still say hi by name and see how it goes. Not trying to push, just keeping the door open. After a few times of trying, a lot of people will start to open up our let the guard down. Some don't.

I'm an introvert and all of this takes extra mental energy on top of the events being competition and work. I don't have the time to compete at the highest level every event because I'm spending time helping others. Rather than getting a better driver in my car to tell me where I'm making mistakes, I'm trying to get the less skilled drivers in my car so they can see why I'm faster. Instead of reviewing data over lunch to see where I'm losing time, I'm trying to build community. I want people to come back. There's a cost to it.

I moved to the middle of nowhere 10 years ago and had no local friends. Work friends are rarely real friends. Tech meets, young professionals groups, nothing came out of those. It sucks to go to a bar alone. None of that produced anything.

Motorsport has been the only activity I've tried where I've started making friends who I talk to outside the events. A lot of it is still about motorsports, but I've gained a few friends who I sim race with or talk to online in the off season. It could have been any other group or activity, but those are the people who made me feel welcome.

Real figures, there are at least 25 people I can walk up to and start a conversation with at an event and have good rapport, more that I know by name and just haven't clicked with, 2-3 people I consider actual friends. I started putting in the effort like this after my first season, so this is the product of 2 seasons of effort (winter doesn't count because there are no events). I'm still kind of lonely, but it's better and getting better.

I think it's that I put in effort. I know I've helped some of those people feel like part of a community. I gave them a few people they could talk to so they didn't feel so alone. Maybe my role was just keeping them coming back until they found their clique. Maybe I need more time to get to know them. Some introverts need an extrovert to help them get started. Sometimes that extrovert is an introvert tryhard.

The reason I do this is cause one guy stuck his head in my window after a run and said something like "bro that was awesome! Nice run!" And he was genuinely happy for me even though he barely knew me. I'm not good at that specific thing so I try in my own way.

I think people look for community. I did. I bounced off a few groups because I didn't fit in. I'm trying to do my part to help people "fit in". Tech solutions ain't gonna help here. Get face to face, make outsiders feel accepted, and see what happens.

And thanks, Clarke.

from what I've looked into, on an individual level, the main thing I need to do is learn how to be a good company for others. Be for other strangers what I would want them to be for me. But it's easier said then done.

From a practical perspective, there is the whole "3rd place" issue. How can I open a business that caters to the public, who will just sit there and loiter on their phones and laptops all day and be profitable. Starbucks sort of did it in the 90s, but they're not tolerating that anymore.

Forget businesses, can you walk to a park, a beach, a hiking trail on a whim and run into people? Can you hold events, watch parties,etc.. on public places easily like that? It's not easy at all these days.

I blame cars. I despise the idea that electric cars are the replacement to cars, without considering changing transportation so that it is more efficient with trams, trains,etc... The side-effect of that is you run into strangers on public transport. This doesn't just affect the loneliness epidemic, it is in my opinion a direct cause of cardiovascular diseases and diabetes, and of course obesity. You can't even be homeless and sleep on the streets these days. Even the park benches are built to be hostile to anyone that wants to chill there for too long.

Society was restructured between 1950s-1980s so that it is suburbanized. It's all about the family unit, single family homes, freeways and roads built to facilitate single family homes (after WW2, starting families was all the rage, plus white-flight didn't help). Shopping centers built to cater to consumers driving from their suburban homes. Malls you can walk in, after you drove some time to park there. Even when you buy food items at grocery stores, pay attention to serving sizes, it is improving a little, but you'll see at minimum a serving size of two typically.

Society was deliberately engineered so that you have more reasons to spend more as a consumer. Families spend more per-capita. suburbs mean more houses purchased, entire generations renting with their bank as a landlord via mortgages, home repair, home insurance, car insurance, car repairs, gas stations for cars where you can get the most unhealthy things out there in the most frequented and convenient places. Make kids, make wives, make ex-wives, get sick the whole lot of you for hospitals, health insurances,etc..

It wasn't planned by some central committees or secret cabal, but it was planned nonetheless by economists and policy makers.

If everyone just got married and had kids, they won't be lonely would they? you don't need to hang out at park with strangers, you'll feel less of a member of your local neighborhood who look and think like you, and start thinking more as one people.

All the interpersonal interactions and opportunities to build relationships with people are commercialized and controlled.

For one reason or another, people are just not getting married in their early 20's anymore, or having that many kids later on like before. Even when you get married, your interaction is by design with other married people, who are busy commuting in their cars to and fro work, kids school,kids sports, plays,etc... imagine taking your kids on busses and trains every day to these places which are fairly near-by, by necessity. you'll be spending time with them instead of operating machinery. They'll be meeting stranger kids from other schools, seeing random strangers all the time, you'll be talking to randos as you walk to the train, wait on the bus,etc.. but this can't be monetized.

Blame the economists and policy makers if you want to blame someone.

If you want solutions, let's talk explicitly about the policy changes that need to happen.

Too much traffic? tear down the freeways instead of building more lanes.

It costs $10B to build a simple metro line? pass better laws to regulate bidding and costs, investigate fraud and waste.

But to dig even deeper into the root of the matter, look at what is celebrated and prized in society. Most of its ills come from there. For most Americans, it is inconceivable to be able to just go out of your house without any plans or destination in mind and just start walking and see where you end up, and who you run into. That's a crucial and tragic ability that's been lost. We really have more urgent things to address to be fair, but ultimately, this can only be solved one small step at a time, but also big sweeping changes are needed. The first step is to define and accept what the problem is, and where the blame and cause lie.

You can't.

It is up to them to change. They won't change, and this "loneliness epidemic" is starting to become really fucking annoying. It is almost a grift now to shit on tech by mids.

These people don't want to go outside or engage with other people.

It is like people who are drug/alcohol/tobacco/gambling/sex/etc addicts. It is up to the individual to change. How is it anyone else's responsibility?

I surveyed a bunch of people on reddit, discords, etc. a couple years ago to figure out why people are lonely, back when this whole "loneliness" movement was starting.

A lot of these people say they have "trauma" or some other mental block as a primary reason why they're lonely (btw they're in discords with thousands of people, and playing online games with OTHER PEOPLE). I'm sorry but everyone has shit going on in their lives. You aren't really that special.

Maybe 1-5% of people have dealt with actual, really horrific trauma, and even they have managed to go on to have fulfilling lives. They chose to move on.

I'm an asshole, no doubt, and I've dealt with my own traumas in the past that were honestly way more fucking horrible than "I'm shy" or "nobody likes [insert some esoteric niche]" and guess what? Who cares? Go outside.

There is no helping these people, or anyone to be honest, unless they really want to make a change. These aren't starving Sudanese or people who live in India or something where you can't just "go outside". Mfs be in CALIFORNIA and crying. I'd understand if they were lonely because they were living in Iraq or Venezuela or something.

The only solution is we build a Matrix, and put all these people into it. I will bet 100% of my net worth and any earnings from my entire lineage for perpetuity that they will still fucking complain and be lonely. I was really hopeful for metaverse, too bad but maybe there's still a chance.

I never want to hear about "loneliness epidemic" again, to me it just sounds like DEI/ESG/Eacc and other bs grifting now to hate on tech. Everything is a choice. You press A in a video game even though you're lonely, why not press A to go outside?

These people aren't lonely, they exist in massive online echo chambers with other people. And honestly? I think they like it. Most drug addicts loved being on drugs even though it was a horrific existence. They don't like it when they're narcan'd during OD. But when they decide to get clean, I am proud that they actually did it how amazing is that? SO these lonely people have to stop crying and step outside.

> who don't feel that they can join any local groups

Crux of the issue right here. Idiots online keep blasting into their eyeballs that they are worthless and society has already collapsed. All they need to do is go down the road and join a club or a church or something.

Especially for users of this website. Almost all clubs are in dire need of a webmaster.

If you have young boys in your life then teach them that it's ok to feel and express their emotions, and as they get older that their sexual self need not be frightening and that sex can exist outside of narratives of domination.

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build another software platform

/s

This community is not going to be the one to solve that problem, sorry.

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May I suggest that the political divide is extremely harmful? I don’t understand why [other camp] is so hateful, socially excluding at the first sign of our political leaning, etc.

I agree we also need to organize activities, but when social circles are occupied by the other camp with a witchhunt bonus, it is discouraging to try. And recursively encourages political extremism.

Incoming comment: “Not our problem, don’t be a Nazi.”

Are you talking about the US? If so, I heard this proposed on a podcast “Grey Area”. Mandatory two year draft for all, regardless of gender. It sounds crazy at first but it kind makes sense the more you think about it.

No. We are too busy worrying about an invading USA.