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capitainenemo10/06/20240 repliesview on HN

I'm going to leave it at "agree to disagree".. But here's my wall of text anyway.

Until something more substantive is done to control who can fingerprint (let's assume this is even a reasonable solution), users are forced to deactivate fingerprinting, and Firefox can NOT roll it out by default (your captchas are the main blocker) - or even expose it as a user option in config and advertise it with caveats that you might get more challenges - right now you don't just get more challenges, you get a broken internet.

And, 36% of the internet bot activity is pretty meaningless. I personally have no problem if 90% of the internet is bot activity. We have an enormous amount of bot traffic on our websites - I would say the majority - and I don't block any of it that respects our terms - a ton of it is being obviously used to train LLMs or improve search engines - more power to them. And honestly there's probably an opportunity for monetisation here. Some of it is security scans. Whatever. That is not a problem. Non-human users of the internet will inevitably arise as integration does, and I've written many a bot myself. Abuse is the problem. There are ways to tackle abuse that aren't fingerprinting. Smarter heuristics (which are obviously not being used by the "captcha" companies or I would not be getting blocked on routine use of sites like FedEx or Drupal or my bank after following a link from that bank or service), hash cash, smarter actual turing tests that verify not "human-like" spoofable profiles, but actual human-like competence... without fingerprinting. What we have right now is laziness and the fact that fingerprinting is profitable so there is actually an incentive to discourage it by all parties involved. It'll never be perfect but what we have now is far far far from that.

I will say, BTW, that bots are not that hard to block. On a website I maintain we went from 1000+ bot accounts a month to 0 in many years, simply by adding an extra hand-rolled element to a generic captcha. The generic captchas are what bots bother to break in most cases. (that would probably not apply to massive services, but those also have the capacity to keep creating new custom ones, and be a moving target - probably would just require one programmer full-time really)

And yes, businesses need to implement it these "captcha" solutions better, but the people offering the solutions are not offering them with transparency as to the issues or clean integration with APIs. It's just get the contract, drop in front of all traffic, move on.

And, for god's sake, implement the captcha sanely. Don't require third party javascript, cookies, etc. Have the companies proxy it through their website so standard security and privacy measures don't block by default which happens almost all the time. In fact in many cases even the feedback when blocked, is also blocked facepalm. Don't block by default on a "suspicious" (i.e. generic) fingerprint as what happens quite often now. Actually SHOW a captcha so the user has a fighting chance and knows what is going on.