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mapontosevenths12/07/20251 replyview on HN

> That tradeoff only makes sense, when you don't trust and control the OS itself.

That's totally accurate, but you're missing the fact that we fundamentally don't (and can never) trust the OS or any other part of a general purpose computer.

In general purpose computing you have a version of Descartes brain in a vat problem (or maybe Plato's allegory of the cave if you want to go even further back).

https://iep.utm.edu/brain-in-a-vat-argument/

To summarize: We can't trust the inputs even if the OS is trusted, and if the OS is trusted can't trust the compiler, and even if we trust the compiler we can't trust the firmware, but even if we trust the firmware we can't trust the chips it runs on, and even if we trust those chips we can't trust the supply chain, etc. "Trust" is fundamentally unsolvable for any Turing machine, because all trust does is move the issue further down the supply chain.

I know this all sounds a bit hypothetical, but it's not. I can show you a real world example of every one of those things having been compromised in the past. When there is money or lives at stake people will find a way, and both things are definitely at stake here.

So what we have to do is trust, but verify, or at the very least log everything that happens and that's largely what those EDR products exist to do. Maybe we can't stop every attack, even in theory, but we take a crack at it and while we're at it we can log every attack to ensure that we can at least catch it later.

There just isn't any version of this world in which general purpose computers don't require monitoring, logging, and exploit prevention.


Replies

171862744012/07/2025

Sure, that is why you trust a blackbox software from some random company running as a rootkit, whose concrete version you do not even control, because it is remotely updated by them.

If you think the hardware works against you, then you are screwed.

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