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amlutoyesterday at 3:55 AM3 repliesview on HN

If I were running this show, I would have a second concurrent project as a hedge and as a chance of leapfrogging the West: trying to make free electron laser lithography work.

Free electron lasers have lots of (theoretical) advantages: no tin debris, better wavelength control, the ability to get even shorter wavelengths, higher power, higher efficiency, and it’s less Rube Goldberg-ish. Also the barrier to entry for basic research is pretty low: I visited a little FEL in a small lab that looked like it had been built for an entirely reasonable price and did not require any clean rooms.

So far it seems like Japan is working on this, but I have the impression that no one is trying all that hard.

https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.35848/1347-4065/acc18c


Replies

jpgvmyesterday at 4:32 AM

Yeah I think it's likely they get an EUV machine working but with less efficiency than ASML just because of how long it takes to tune these beasts and work out all the kinks.

The big brain move is to try leap-frog the whole thing with XFEL. Smaller wavelength, way brighter source, no vaporized tin particulate, etc. It's a much bigger lift, new optics, new resists, etc. So a completely brand new supply-chain from scatch but with no competitors on that tech yet and low will for Western companies to try compete on it because they need to get money out of existing EUV tech first.

This is very similar IMO to Chinese auto manufacturing. Their ICE cars never really did meet the same standards as European or Japanese manufacturers despite JVs etc.

However EVs and green-tech are analagous to the XFEL path, they built from scratch and leapt over the competition that was happy to sit on it's existing profitable tech instead.

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entangledqubityesterday at 4:32 AM

DARPA funded a bit in this space a while ago. (Example: https://www.nextbigfuture.com/2011/01/darpa-maskless-nanowri...) I'm not sure how you get over the bandwidth limitations, even with multi-beam.

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cess11yesterday at 7:16 AM

I'm not all that familiar with the intricacies of this industry but it seems they have at least one corporation with ambitions in this area:

https://www.scmp.com/news/china/science/article/3333641/chin...

That mention of "quantum" seems suspicious, but it's beyond me to judge whether their presentations are credible:

http://lumi-universe.com/?about_33/

If they actually produce machines that can do ~14 nm stuff on "desktop" sized equipment, perhaps we'll see a lot of it eventually. As far as I can remember a lot of decent processing and storage chips were made with ~14 nm processes over the last decade or so.

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