logoalt Hacker News

anon84873628yesterday at 2:32 PM7 repliesview on HN

Do you disagree that some critics of AA are committing that fallacy?

AA is being used as an example of the failure mode where:

"The failure of a single component does not mean the program is fatally flawed; rather, it highlights the need for a comprehensive, coordinated approach"

Indeed, I'm sure the author would agree that part of the comprehensive solution is to increase the amount of university admission slots.


Replies

skibidithinkyesterday at 2:57 PM

Even if some critics of AA are committing that fallacy, debunking a weaker argument when a stronger argument exists is ineffective.

The implicit argument is that AA's largest challenge is a coordination problem. It's not. It's a clash in values and a fight over zero-sum rewards.

show 1 reply
friendzisyesterday at 4:02 PM

> Do you disagree that some critics of AA are committing that fallacy?

This is is such a weird non-argument dressed as some gotcha. "Some critics of x are committing y fallacy" is probably universally correct statement. It is so devoid of any meaning that this particular type of discourse has not only a name, but a mascot too.

show 1 reply
Aurornisyesterday at 2:44 PM

That feels more like a cop-out than a legitimate criticism of a fallacy.

If the author could propose an affirmative action program that didn’t have that “single component” at the core of how it operates then I’d be more interested in the argument, but as-is it just feels like an attempt to forcefully ignore valid criticisms.

show 1 reply
nonethewiseryesterday at 3:55 PM

If what skibidithink says is true, doesn't it mean that it's not a fallacy at all? And that the failure he identifies does undermine the entire thing?

Either way, seems like a very narrow distinction you are drawing when he is making the meatier claim that affirmative action is fundamentally flawed.

show 1 reply
MontyCarloHallyesterday at 3:37 PM

>Indeed, I'm sure the author would agree that part of the comprehensive solution is to increase the amount of university admission slots.

A large part of the value of elite education is its scarcity, and adding more slots dilutes that value.

show 1 reply
XCabbageyesterday at 3:36 PM

I certainly claim that almost nobody "commits" that "fallacy" and that it is not a remotely notable viewpoint in the civic discourse of any country I know about.

No doubt in a world of 8 billion people, there exists someone, somewhere, who has for some reason voiced the belief described - i.e. that if institutions really heavily based their selection of applicants on skin color rather than merit, that would be good, but that because in reality institutions have only been convinced to somewhat compromise on merit-based selection in favour of skin-color-based selection, it's bad, and should thus be abandoned completely in favour of total meritocracy. But that belief would really be rather odd, and I have never seen it expressed even once in my entire life.

Nor am I convinced, despite its oddness, that it is properly considered to contain a fallacy! After all, sometimes it really is the case, for various reasons, that some endeavour is only worth doing if total success can be achieved, and not worth the downsides if you can only succeed partially. No doubt if someone really held the allegedly fallacious view described, they would believe affirmative action is exactly such an endeavour and be able to explain why!

show 1 reply