alt Hacker NewsAllow me to introduce, the Citroen C15
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I can confirm all of the findings.
My first car I got in Germany was a C15. I used it to transport server racks, but also had a mattress in the back and had my first sex on it. On muddy festivals where others cars got stuck, I was able to get out easily. Repairs were dirt cheap. It also had a tow bar, and was able to pull a 1.5 metric ton trailer to get equipment to a computer party.
And I still was able to do 160 km/h (100 MPH) with it on the Autobahn. With or without server racks, with or without sex.
Best car I ever had.
It is really insane that these days cars on average weigh 25-40 times of their load. Human stupidity never ceases to amaze me.
> The Ford Ranger (2020). One of the most popular pickups in the US. A key selling point is that the cabin is so high you can run over toddlers without even noticing.
The craziest thing about this criticism is that it is phrased as hyperbole but the reality is that this is seen as a small truck in the US.
The Ford Ranger actually is the best selling pickup truck in Europe for 10 straight years, but doesn’t sell as much in the US. The larger F series trucks sell more than an order of magnitude more in the US.
How casually people here are ignoring NOx and especially PM2.5. It has no DPF (Diesel Particulate Filter). You are emitting more than 200 times the amount of pm2.5 than a modern diesel. source:https://www.nanoparticles.ch/archive/2011_May_PR.pdf https://aaqr.org/articles/aaqr-20-02-oa-0081
Also this car has only has 60hp.
The French seem to be very thoughtful people who solved multiple pesky problems permanently:
1) Guillotine for the super rich
2) Nuclear to power >70%
3) C15 for people, cows, craftsmen, mini house
4) TGV
5) french fries for the fastest carbohydrate delivery, handily beating rice
I wish they bring back the first 3 and do some shorts, market them to the world. Fries are doing fine.
I know it's a joke, but if you clip a curb or even a slightly chunky branch at 15mph in one of these EVERYONE DIES (...only partially joking)
In a crash it'll fold up like the tin can it is, even against a car of a similar vintage and size (no comment on the cows). Up against even a modern supermini and you're literal mince meat, let alone a modern SUV. At least you won't suffer long.
So if you are off roading or on a snowy road, hopefully you won't slip into a tree or roll over. Modern cars - even "small" ones -are heavier partly because they are substantially safer. A crash that would have had to have you cut out of the wreckage by the fire brigade (potentially losing a limb or two in the process) is now the sort of thing you can walk away from. Yes even in "small" modern cars (you do not need a SUV for safety).
It's night and day really - just go look at the archive on EuroNCAP.. In the crash tests that left 90s and early 2000s cars as unrecognisable mounds of broken and twisted metal (e.g. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9a8PTeFDaYU which was a car that was probably 10 years more advanced than the c15 in terms of safety...) now barely even break the windscreen of modern super-mini cars (e.g. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NaWVepTJTGw&t=1s&pp=2AEBkAIB). Amazing.
I had a Renault Kangoo and was similarly militant about its supremacy. It was a cheap, reliable thing and people carrier. It could fit five people, or two people, two bicycles and plenty of camping gear. It was cheap and ugly enough to shrug about cosmetic damage, so I never worried about kicking the doors shut or sitting on the roof. It was also tiny and easy to drive and park. It was mechanically simple and reliable.
It broke down recently at 18 years of age and I can't justify maintaining a car in Berlin, but I loved that car to bits.
Genuine question: what about the NOx?
I remember in Belgium when the laws pushed for lower CO2, and you got an influx of all these diesel engines, as you couldn't get that low with gasoline engines (that had some power).
But a few years later people came to the realization that CO2 is the least bad of the global warming gasses, and those diesel engines emitted a lot of NOx.
Every year there was a distance that you'd have to drive before diesel made sense (as you get more miles out of a gallon, and it was cheaper per gallon).
That number kept on creeping up due to new diesel taxes, and the fact that diesel is no longer cheaper per unit than gas.
Most people who live in rural Britain today are still getting around in hatchbacks or estates (station wagons, to use the American term). The enormous SUVs are almost entirely driven by people who've used their money to buy into the countryside aesthetic.
He's mixing US/UK vs France and 1985 vs 2025.
Today, Citroen's equivalent offering is the Berlingo. Starts at 26k, not as much of a tank as the other cars but still way more massive than the C15.
My favorite C15 story is with my childhood friend who got it as a hand-me-down first car, we used to put plastic lawn chairs in the back and head to the beach...
The gas meter was broken, so my friend had to guesstimate when he needed a refill.
At one point it was stolen, but then found a week later on the side of the highway,out of gas..
In that spirit, France is now doing the Bagnole https://kilow.com/en/pages/la-bagnole
First off, I agree with the point made, though I think a more reasonable comparison would be something like a subaru. The people I know who have to deal with excessive snow or mud on country roads commonly opt for that. Of course there’s the “men” who compensate for their lack of buldge with 350s, dualies, etc. If you don’t work a farm, those whips are dummm.
That was a good perspective though- I grew up hearing Citroen makes garbage.
Side note- The vast majority of pollution is from industry. By a lot. That is where the finger needs to be pointing. Pointing the finger at SUV drivers distracts from the real issue and keeps us blaming each other.
>prove that men who buy SUVs and Pick-Ups are, with very few exceptions, compensating for something ;)
What does that mean? The thread just repeating this compensating thing but not sure what does it try to say really.
Also most women I know drive SUVs or family vans not compact cars. Are they compensating for something?
In Italy we had similar memes for the (old) Fiat Panda 4x4
Brits are no strangers to the Citroen C15 as the article seems to imply. We liked them.
It was the basis of a successful line of British built micro-campers from Romahome.
https://www.practicalmotorhome.com/advice/used-romahome-on-c...
I remember looking at one as a surf-van back in the day.
It's a global pandemic of oversized cars. People love SUVs because it makes them feel powerful and successful. Explanations why they need them are generally along the lines of "because we have kids" (but SUVs don't actually have that much space), or "because heavier means safer" (well yes, at the cost of others).
I love small cars, in fact I owned a Fiat 500 for a number of years and a number of small VWs. With that said, it really grinds my gears (Pun intended) when Europeans want to lecture Americans about large cars.
Our roads are bigger, gas is dirt cheap, parking is plentiful and spacious outside dense metros, and the RAM 1500 I own is 100x more useful no mater how you want to try and spin the facts. I can tow a large trailer with my Jeep on it, a large RV, boats, etc. It is highly capable off roading on technical terrain here in Utah. It’s also insanely comfortable and luxurious on road trips and has enough room to lay on the rear bench seat as if it were a bed. I truly use all of the capabilities in a niche that almost no other vehicle besides a standard size truck occupies.
Designed in the era of Use-maxing vs Status-maxing. I think modern cars are taking a lot of car experience out and putting in the phone experience in. My Maruti Suzuki 800 was such a fun car to drive. Easy to repair. Decently efficient. Repair manual was understandable.
The new electrics are great. But they are less of a car and more of a transportation technology.
That's hilarious. The German version (VW Caddy) is similar. Citroen at some point had a van version of the 2CV and the Diane, this is the continuation of that tradition.
Sorry for going counter to the narrative, but I had a friend who had an early 2000s Citroen which was made around the time when French cars had the worst reputation - and I tell you, by the stories he told, they deserved it.
There was no part on this which didn't get replaced during the scant few years he owned it, and it left him stranded like half a dozen times.
He contemplated setting it on fire rather than selling it, not wanting the next lucky owner to go through the same stuff he did.
I still prefer the older classic CX or DS. Nothing compared to them. Casteljau also has a word. (Bezier worked for Renault, but Casteljau made the Bernstein ponynomials popular)
This thread is so sad. A population in decline.
You know all those dark patterns in software? What if we applied the same concepts to gigantic mechanical devices, taking advantage of human psychological faults, and generate a profit margin on those? Sure seems what seems to have happened with motor vehicles
Absolutely true. It's even the subject of many memes! search for "c15 memes".
I saw Renault 4 used in similar ways in France. Hatchback fully up, oyster farmers using it like a van.
In Poland it was Polonez Caro: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FSO_Polonez
My family hired https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Izh_2715 in eastern Europe to move furniture few times. It was usually referred as "Pirojok", which can be translated as stuffed bun.
My dad got rid of his C15 after driving 1 million kilometers with it (rural France) The engine was fine surprisingly, the body was rusted to the bone though
Can't imagine producing and selling this under the current regulations (and not just the crash-worthiness). I with they and C15 move towards each other...
> But what if you're an environmentally conscious mother who needs to drive the 5 minute walk to your kids' school? Surely, a modern car must be less polluting?
> CO2 emissions/km:
No, you have already compared fuel consumption. This is equivalent.
To be fair to the SUV they weren't really a thing in France before 2 decades after the C15. To be fair to the C15 the main buyers of SUV at the beginning were urban and suburban moms that wanted to show they had money and we're feeling better in big and tall cars
I’ve been a passenger in the front and the back of a C15 and they are pure utility vehicule. You get heating in winter and ventilation in summer. The windows are manual, front seat are okay, and I don’t know if they have updated models with aircon before stopping the production.
The Ranger is now a midsize truck. A better comparison is the hybrid Maverick.
My government did everything to not allow people use old cars. Great monuments like Citroen C15 are not allowed in the whole city of Krakow.
Unrelated to the article: What I find frustrating about mastodon is how I click a link and then cannot favorite a post as there's no unified login between federated servers.
I have the Ford Ranger with the 2 litre biturbo diesel engine in Australia. It is so good it's hard to conceive that a better vehicle could be possible.
Asking seriously, what is holding us from creating these masterpieces again?
Best car ever! I have seen then running in Spain forever and still work as the first day. Easiest car to repair ever and never breaks!
It's funny (and depressing) because it's actually true despite the hyperbole.
This is basically the equivalent to the FIAT Panda 4x4 in small villages in Italy
Lovely. Of only they could make some in todays's world of new cars....
The ranger has a tow rating of 7500 lb.
The gross vehicle weight (ie the max vehicle weight with the heifers, obviously stuffies) of the C15 is 1500 kg (hence the name) or 3300 lb.
Uhaul rents a car tow trailer rated for 5000 lb that weighs 2200 lb [1].
The Ranger, then, can tow the C-15 + the heifers = 5500 lb and have 2000 lb left over to put two real heifers, and do this legally at 70mph.
Citroen makes great vehicles though. Amazing off roaders.
[1] https://www.uhaul.com/Trailers/Auto-Transport-Rental/AT/
Typical technically correct content.
If you are person that doesn’t give a fuck about keeping up with Jones’s you just buy whatever does the job.
I could drive much better car but I don’t have to impress my neighbors.
Still with non-impressive car I get pushed around on the road by guys in big and impressive cars. But also I drive on defense anyway so I get them to go far away from me by letting them pass.
I am quite fit though not super big or anything and car I drive is attributable to old geezers or ladies. Once guy jumped out of the car to shout at me he took his tone two notches down quickly.
So technically you might be right but still there is whole human experience to deal with.
I'm sold. Where can I buy one!
what's a modern equivalent? (and maybe a 4 seater)
> I often hear Americans & rich brits justify buying oversized, polluting vehicles by claiming they need them because they live in the "countryside".
> I call bullshit, Ladies and Gentlemen, allow me to introduce, the Citroen C15
But they aren’t even for sale in the US!
Off topic: That comma in the title really grates on me. It's supposed to be "dramatic pause" or something, but it can also be read as "pause while I check my notes to remember what the name of this thing actually is".
Hat tip to Joel Garreau, from whom I stole this reading of that kind of comma.
The C15 represents a time when a vehicle was a tool. I feel vehicles want to turn into a subscription service these days.
I still see these running in rural Spain and France, usually held together with wire and hope, clocking like what 400k+ km? The XUD diesel engines are practically unkillable. They have no ECU to brick, no adblue sensors to fail and put the car into limp mode and thankfully none of those DRM locked headlights.
The argument for the countryside need of a modern SUV usually cites reliability and safety, and in 2026, modern complexity is the enemy of reliability. If your C15 breaks down in a field, you can fix it with a wrench. If your Range Rover breaks down in a field because a sensor in the air suspension noticed a voltage variance...you are stranded until a tow truck takes it to a dealer.