logoalt Hacker News

JimDabellyesterday at 4:42 AM1 replyview on HN

> To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries.

Copyright is not “you own this forever because you deserve it”, copyright is “we’ll give you a temporary monopoly on copying to give you an incentive to create”. It’s transactional in nature. You create for society, society rewards you by giving you commercial leverage for a while.

Repeatedly extending copyright durations from the original 14+14 years to durations that outlast everybody alive today might technically be “limited times” but obviously violates the spirit of the law and undermines its goal. The goal was to incentivise people to create, and being able to have one hit that you can live off for the rest of your life is the opposite of that. Copyright durations need to be shorter than a typical career so that its incentive for creators to create for a living remains and the purpose of copyright is fulfilled.

In the context of large language models, if anybody successfully uses copyright to stop large language models from learning from books, that seems like a clear subversion of the law – it’s stopping “the progress of science and useful arts” not promoting it.

(To be clear, I’m not referring to memorisation and regurgitation like the examples in this paper, but rather the more commonplace “we trained on a zillion books and now it knows how language works and facts about the world”.)


Replies

visargayesterday at 1:55 PM

Duration of copyright is one way it was perverted, but the other direction was scope. In 1930 judge Hand said in relation to Nichols v. Universal Pictures:

> Upon any work...a great number of patterns of increasing generality will fit equally well. At the one end is the most concrete possible expression...at the other, a title...Nobody has ever been able to fix that boundary, and nobody ever can...As respects play, plagiarism may be found in the 'sequence of events'...this trivial points of expression come to be included.

And since then a litany of judges and tests expanded the notion of infringement towards vibes and away from expression:

- Hand's Abstractions / The "Patterns" Test (Nichols v. Universal Pictures)

- Total Concept and Feel (Roth Greeting Cards v. United Card Co.)

- The Krofft Test / Extrinsic and Intrinsic Analysis

- Sequence, Structure, and Organization (Whelan Associates v. Jaslow Dental Laboratory)

- Abstraction-Filtration-Comparison (AFC) Test (Computer Associates v. Altai)

The trend has been to make infringement more and more abstract over time, but this makes testing it an impossible burden. How do you ensure you are not infringing any protected abstraction on any level in any prior work? Due diligence has become too difficult now.