alt Hacker News> I also know that these systems we've built today aren't moral patients.
Can you tell me how you know this?
> In every single case, we humans are the first mover in the causal hierarchy of these systems.
So because I have parents I am not a moral patient?
That's causal hierarchy, but not existential hierarchy. Existentially, you will begin to do something by virtue of you existing in of yourself. Therefore, because I assume you are another human being using this site, and humans have consciousness and agency, you are a moral patient.