logoalt Hacker News

tasty_freezetoday at 12:30 AM8 repliesview on HN

Here is one fact that seems, to me, pretty convincing that there is another layer underneath what we know.

The charge of electrons is -1 and protons +1. It has been experimentally measured out to 12 digits or so to be the same magnitude, just opposite charge. However, there are no theories why this is -- they are simply measured and that is it.

It beggars belief that these just happen to be exactly (as far as we can measure) the same magnitude. There almost certainly is a lower level mechanism which explains why they are exactly the same but opposite.


Replies

Paracompacttoday at 12:38 AM

Technically, the charge of a proton can be derived from its constituent 2 up quarks and 1 down quark, which have charges 2/3 and -1/3 respectively. I'm not aware of any deeper reason why these should be simple fractional ratios of the charge of the electron, however, I'm not sure there needs to be one. If you believe the stack of turtles ends somewhere, you have to accept there will eventually be (hopefully simple) coincidences between certain fundamental values, no?

show 5 replies
rjh29today at 12:39 AM

One argument (while unsatisfying) is there are trillions of possible configurations, but ours is the one that happened to work which is why we're here to observe it. Changing any of them even a little bit would result in an empty universe.

show 1 reply
PaulHouletoday at 12:32 AM

If it wasn't the case then matter wouldn't be stable.

show 2 replies
andyfilms1today at 12:48 AM

For a given calculation on given hardware, the 100th digit of a floating point decimal can be replicated every time. But that digit is basically just noise, and has no influence on the 1st digit.

In other words: There can be multiple "layers" of linked states, but that doesn't necessarily mean the lower layers "create" the higher layers, or vice versa.

jiggawattstoday at 12:53 AM

This is "expected" from theory, because all particles seem to be just various aspects of the "same things" that obey a fairly simple algebra.

For example, pair production is:

    photon + photon = electron + (-)electron
You can take that diagram, rotate it in spacetime, and you have the direct equivalent, which is electrons changing paths by exchanging a photon:

   electron + photon = electron - photon
There are similar formulas for beta decay, which is:

   proton = neutron + electron + (-)neutrino
You can also "rotate" this diagram, or any other Feyman diagram. This very, very strongly hints that the fundamental particles aren't actually fundamental in some sense.

The precise why of this algebra is the big question! People are chipping away at it, and there's been slow but steady progress.

One of the "best" approaches I've seen is "The Harari-Shupe preon model and nonrelativistic quantum phase space"[1] by Piotr Zenczykowski which makes the claim that just like how Schrodinger "solved" the quantum wave equation in 3D space by using complex numbers, it's possible to solve a slightly extended version of the same equation in 6D phase space, yielding matrices that have properties that match the Harari-Shupe preon model. The preon model claims that fundamental particles are further subdivided into preons, the "charges" of which neatly add up to the observed zoo of particle charges, and a simple additive algebra over these charges match Feyman diagrams. The preon model has issues with particle masses and binding energies, but Piotr's work neatly sidesteps that issue by claiming that the preons aren't "particles" as such, but just mathematical properties of these matrices.

I put "best" in quotes above because there isn't anything remotely like a widely accepted theory for this yet, just a few clever people throwing ideas at the wall to see what sticks.

[1] https://arxiv.org/abs/0803.0223

show 1 reply
wvbdmptoday at 12:35 AM

Aren’t things like this usually explained by being the only viable configuration, or is that not the case here?

throwup238today at 12:37 AM

Or why the quarks that make up protons and neutrons have fractional charges, with +1 protons mixing two +2/3 up quarks and one -1/3 down quark, and the neutral neutron is one up quark and two down quarks. And where are all the other Quarks in all of this, busy tending bar?

show 1 reply
smnplktoday at 1:05 AM

There are layers science can not access.

show 1 reply