alt Hacker NewsRust GUI is in a tough spot right now with critical dependencies under-staffed and lots of projects half implemented. I think the advent of LLMs has been timed perfectly to set the ecosystem back for a few more years. I wrote about it, and how it affected our development yesterday: https://tritium.legal/blog/desktop
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Your recent post resonated with me deeply, as someone heavily invested in the Rust GUI I've fallen into this same conundrum. I think ultimately the Rust GUI ecosystem is still not mature and as a consequence we have to make big concessions when picking a framework.
I also came to a similar endpoint when building out a fairy large GUI application using egui. While egui solves the "draw widgets" part of building out the application, inevitably I had to restructure my app entirely with a new architecture to make it maintainable. In many places the "immediate" nature of the GUI mutable editing the state was no longer an advantage. Not to mention that UI code I wrote 6 months ago became difficult to read, especially if there was advanced layout happening.
Ultimately I've boiled my choices down to:
- egui for practicality but you pay the price in architecture + styling
- iced for a nice architecture but you have to roll all your own widgets
- slint maybe one day once they make text rendering a higher priority but even then the architecture side is not solved for you either
- tauri/dioxus/electron if you're not a purist like me
- Rewind 20 years and use Qt/WPF/etc.
In my experience immediate mode guis almost always ignore internationalization and accessibility.
The thing you get by using an OS widget and putting a string in it is that the OS can interact with the string. It can read it out load, translate it, fill it in with a password, look it up in a dictionary, edit it right to left, handle input method editors whose hot keys are in conflict with app doing its own editing, etc…
There’s a reason why the most popular ImGUIs are targeted at game dev tools and in game dev uis and not end user uis
You could potentially make an Immediate mode gui that wrapped a retained gui. arguably that is what react is. From the programmers pov it’s supposed to look like imgui code all the way down. It runs into the issues of having to keep to two representations in sync. The ui represented by react and the actual widgets (html or native) and that’s where all its complications come from
> Rust GUI is in a tough spot right now with critical dependencies under-staffed and lots of projects half implemented.
Down the stack, low-level 3D acceleration is in a rough spot too unfortunately. The canonical Rust Vulkan wrapper (Ash) hasn't cut a release for nearly two years, and even git main is far behind the latest spec updates.
This is why I'm using LLMs to help me hand code the GUI for my Rust app in SDL2. I'm hoping that minimizing the low-level, drawing-specific code and maximizing the abstractions in Rust will allow me to easily switch to a better GUI library if one arises. Meanwhile, SDL is not half bad.
Honestly I think all native GUI is in a tough spot right now. The desktop market has matured so there aren't any large companies willing to put a ton of money into new fully featured GUI libraries. What corporate investment we do see into new technologies (Electron, SwiftUI, React Native) is mainly to allow developers to reuse work from other platforms like web and mobile in order to cut costs on desktop development. Without that corporate investment I don't think we'll ever see any new native GUI libraries become as fully featured as Win32 or Qt Widgets.
> We ignore for these purposes Zed's GPUI which the Zed team has transparently, and understandably abandoned as an open source endeavour
Do you have a source for this?
Open source GUI development is perpetually cursed by underestimating the difficulty of the problem.
A mature high-quality GUI with support for all the features of a modern desktop UI, accessibility, support for all the display variations you encounter in the wild, high quality rendering, high performance, low overhead, etc. is a development task on par with creating a mature game engine like Unity.
Nearly all open source GUI projects get 80% of the way there and stall, not realizing that they are only 20% of the way there.
I'd love to read a writeup of the state of Rust GUI and the ecosystem if you could point me at one.
I don't feel like having one main library for creating windows it's bad, I feel like that way the work gets shared and more collaboration happens
Really? It seems better than ever to me now that we have gpui-component. That seems to finally open doors to have fully native guis that are polished enough for even commercial release. I haven't seen anything else that I would put in that category, but one choice is a start.
iced is doing great
Interesting read, however as someone from the same age group as Casey Muratori, this does not make much sense.
> The "immediate mode" GUI was conceived by Casey Muratori in a talk over 20 years ago.
Maybe he might have made it known to people not old enough to have lived through the old days, however this is how we used to program GUIs in 8 and 16 bit home computers, and has always been a thing in game consoles.