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foooorsythyesterday at 1:57 PM3 repliesview on HN

>The actual meaning of a "clean room implementation" is that it is derived from an API and not from an implementation

This is incorrect and thinking this can get you sued

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Structure,_sequence_and_organi...


Replies

amiga386yesterday at 4:22 PM

Whether you get sued is more on the plaintiff than you.

Per your link, the Supreme Court's thinking on "structure, sequence and organization" (Oracle's argument why Google shouldn't even be allowed to faithfully produce a clean-room implementation of an an API) has changed since the 1980s out of concern that using it to judge copyright infringement risks handing copyright holders a copyright-length monopoly over how to do a thing:

> enthusiasm for protection of "structure, sequence and organization" peaked in the 1980s [..] This trend [away from "SS&O"] has been driven by fidelity to Section 102(b) and recognition of the danger of conferring a monopoly by copyright over what Congress expressly warned should be conferred only by patent

The Supreme Court specifically recognised Google's need to copy the structure, sequence and organization of Java APIs in order to produce a cleanroom Android runtime library that implemented Java APIs so that that existing Java software could work correctly with it.

Similarly, see Oracle v. Rimini Street (https://cdn.ca9.uscourts.gov/datastore/opinions/2024/12/16/2...) where Rimini Street has been producing updates that work with Oracle's products, and Oracle claimed this made them derivative works. The Court of Appeals decided that no, the fact A is written to interoperate with B does not necessarily make A a derivative work of B.

danlittyesterday at 5:36 PM

I did not expect people to take "API" so literally. This point is what I was referring to when I said "I am simplifying slightly". The point is that a clean room impl begins from a specification of what the software does, and that the new implementation is purported to be derived only from this. What I am trying to say is that "not looking at the implementation" is not exactly the point of the test - that is a rule of thumb, which works quite well for avoiding copyright infringement, but only when humans do it.

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umviyesterday at 3:53 PM

You can be sued for any reason if a company feels threatened (see: Oracle v Google)