> The real winner in this subthread: negative polarization.

People being against their local elites is largely a good thing. That’s what the China boosting is mostly about.

> It's kind of incredible to watch. Show people two actors, point out the bad things one has done, and they instantly apply "enemy of my enemy is my friend" logic and turn into China boosters. Without even considering that there might be, say, other options.

People aren’t cardboard cutouts with preprogrammed opinions. They are answering a pretty much yes-or-no question without necessarily giving all the reasons. And it can be tempting to say No to the US Hegemon on an American website, just as an off the cuff of my chair remark.

(And the person you responded to did the same, but with a US-positive response.)

And people do not necessarily sit around wishing for a better hegemon, either. But here’s the pro-USA (“foreign” policy version) script we’ve been seeing.

- America is a force for good

- ... and it if isn’t a force for good then it is a better hegemon than China

- ... and if it isn’t a better hegemon than China for you foreigners then it’s a better hegemon for me, an American

- ... and if it isn’t a better hegemon for you, poor American, it’s a better hegemon for me, rich American

- ... and anyway there will by necessity be some hegemon so you have to choose one

And they think to themselves. Okay. Going with this lesser evil hegemon logic I choose China.

Which again doesn’t mean that they actively want any hegemon at all.

> But because it doesn't have a free press, you and I (and most Chinese citizens) can't see what the downsides are. They're politely but firmly swept under the rug. And if you get on the wrong side of the "ordered society", it can go very badly for you.

I’m a blank slate on this so whatever you say. Most things I’ve heard about China are from the West. And the US in particular. Now recently there has been much more pro-China propaganda or whatever you call it. In terms of tech, infrastructure, even about being a supposed good hegemon to African countries or wherever.

> Perhaps the real lesson is how the American right have so successfully poisoned the idea of competitive politics and free speech that a literal one party state looks better than .. whatever the hell is going on over there. People would opt to give up their right to politics simply in order to not be subjected to politics.

No, you ask them a yes/no question and they choose the lesser evil!

I have no idea about civic engagement in China. No doubt America will tell me that it’s some kind of Black Mirror but literally real life.

Meanwhile in the West we have democracy, in our names. We have civic engagement. Yes yes yes. It’s not undemocratic. But it’s still dominated by the rich. Pick up a political science textbook and they talk about democracy in the West in real terms. As an elite-dominated institution with people-powered ornamentation.

People are not caricatures that either want the American military boot or the Chinese Han supremacy (or whatever is up with ethnicity in China).[1] But if you ask them if they want the American boot, guess what can happen? Them expressing displeasures with their overlords.

[1] This was apparently one of the super downsides of Chinese supremacy according to some corners of this thread. Ethnic majority racism.