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dataflowyesterday at 11:48 PM1 replyview on HN

> You used the word "feel" four times in your post, but it appears zero times in the fourth amendment. The clause labeled [2] limits the scope of the clause labeled [1]. It's not a free-floating right to "feel secure" against anything--people following you, etc. It's a right "to be secure in [your] person" "against" a specific intrusion: "unreasonable searches and seizures."

It the word "feel" distracted you from the underlying point.

First: "being secure in your person" does mean to include feelings as well as actual harm (“protected from... danger” as well as "free from fear"). See [1] for example. I am approximately 99% sure the authors of that amendment would have felt that government officials following them around would have directly violated that amendment, and I would be shocked to hear you're actually arguing otherwise. (Are you?)

Second: you're either misunderstanding or completely ignoring the actual physical danger here. Again, I refer you to my previous question, which you did not address: if I was stalking you 24/7, would you say you ARE secure in your person/effects/etc.? If other people claimed you ARE secure, would you agree with them? Would it change if I was a police officer? Are you seriously going to argue that my stalking is only impacting your feelings regarding your security, not your actual security?

[1] https://ij.org/issues/ijs-project-on-the-4th-amendment/the-r...


Replies

rayinertoday at 12:50 PM

I'm focusing on the word "feel" because it illustrates that you're reading words and ideas into the sentence that aren't there.

"Be[ing] secure in your person" doesn't encompass feelings. The text of the fourth amendment is objective. It refers to objective actions. It's not talking about people's subjective "feelings" about actions.

Your argument doesn't even make sense on its own terms. Let's say the fourth amendment does cover how people feel about government action. Then how do we decide whether people "feel" threatened by geofencing warrants? Do we take a poll? I suspect if you did take a poll, you'd find that most people trust law enforcement and don't "feel" threatened by the police using geofencing warrants to catch bank robbers.

You're also overlooking the rest of the text. The amendment doesn't end at "be secure." It doesn't guarantee being secure--much less feeling secure--from an entire universe of things. The sentence is limited to security "against" two specific things: "unreasonable searches and seizures." It doesn't say anything about the government investigating you or following you around using data available from somewhere else.

We don't have to guess at what "the authors of [the] amendment would have felt." They wrote down what they meant! When they mean to be broad and general, they used broad and general words. The first amendment says: "Congress shall make no law ... abridging the freedom of speech." That's very broad! If the first amendment said "abridging the freedom of speech to publish books" that would be narrower.