logoalt Hacker News

bluGilltoday at 3:09 PM7 repliesview on HN

OPEC has long been Saudi Arabia reducing output, and everyone else selling everything they can. They haven't had much power since the 1970s, but that they exist means they are a threat that if everyone else actually stuck to the agreement for a change.

This is the common problem for cartels: everyone has inventive to cheat on the deals made. By selling a little more than your share you get more money, while because everyone else is following along the prices are higher. (see also prisoners dilemma)


Replies

burner35534today at 6:57 PM

Repeated PD is very different. The whole point of a cartel is that everyone inside is incentivized not to cheat, and it works as long as they agree on what's fair. The problem for cartels is people not in the cartel.

apitoday at 3:49 PM

Tangent but: this is also why reducing greenhouse gas emissions is hard.

As long as fossil fuels remain one of the cheapest easiest to scale ways to make power, there’s a similar incentive to cheat. If everyone else cuts emissions and you don’t, your margins are higher and you can undercut them. Global reductions require an all-cooperate scenario.

Developing nations have the strongest incentive to cheat since they need those margins to catch up.

Which is why I think little progress will be made until other sources are actually cheaper. Until then it’s beyond us politically. We can’t get all nations across the world to simultaneously cooperate at that scale.

show 6 replies
watwuttoday at 3:49 PM

Saudi are staying and UAE is leaving because they want to pump more.

show 1 reply
jmyeettoday at 5:57 PM

I don't know where this idea that OPEC is toothless came from but it's objectively incorrect. Counter example: OPEC was the single largest factor in the inflation shock of 2020-2022. And nobody talks about it.

In March 2020 at the start of the pandemic, it looked like the world economy would come to a standstill. Oil futures went into extreme contango, briefly going negative as nobody was taking delivery. So in April 2020 the Trump administration went and browbeat all the OPEC+ members to massively slash production [1][2][3]. Art of the deal. This culminated in a 2 year deal to cut production by initially 9.7Mbpd (million barrels per day) and then reducing over the 2 year period [4]. This was a disaster.

For context, OPEC does this sort of thing by themselves without any kind of prompting when necessary. They meet every 3 months and project demand and then set production targets to maintain a floor and ceiling for oil prices. Individual members can and do cheat, producing more than their allocation and lying about production cuts but all in all the system mostly works.

Trump loses the election. Biden comes in and demand rockets back in 2021 and crude oil prices skyrocket, as do gas prices as a result. The Biden admin quietly went to MBS to ask him to end the deal. He refused. You can overlay this 2 year deal with global inflation and it pretty much matches up exactly.

So Republicans blamed inflation on Biden even though it was a Trump deal. The Democrats didn't abandon US foreign policy and publicly hang out an ally to dry so instead just blamed greedy oil companies for price gouging. And nobody at all mentioned the 2020 OPEC deal. Not in mainstream politics anyway.

That was a 10% cut in global supply and look what it did to inflation. Closing the Strait cuts global supply by 20%. In 1973 with the Arab oil embargo, the major recessionary effects took 6 months to really hit. This is a ticking time bomb that will likely explode leading into the midterms.

Anyway, the point is OPEC+ did that.

[1]: https://www.reuters.com/article/economy/special-report-trump...

[2]: https://www.reuters.com/article/business/opec-russia-approve...

[3]: https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/opec-would-miss-frie...

[4]: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-global-oil-saudi-cuts-idU...

[4]:

show 1 reply
asahtoday at 3:48 PM

[flagged]

sarjanntoday at 4:01 PM

Isn't the solution in game theory when there are multiple turns to just repeat the move the previous person made.

So if the other side overpumped by x1 amount then you pump an extra x1 the next turn / year (maybe multiplied some reference production factor as they don't all have the same absolute limits).

show 3 replies