alt Hacker NewsWhat can we gain by losing infinity?
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> To Zeilberger, believing in infinity is like believing in God. It’s an alluring idea that flatters our intuitions and helps us make sense of all sorts of phenomena. But the problem is that we cannot truly observe infinity, and so we cannot truly say what it is.
When the author says we cannot truly observe infinity, what does that mean? Infinity is a mathematical symbol we can observe. We can't observe infinitely many objects, but even if we could, it wouldn't be the same as observing infinity. You can't observe the number one by observing one stone.
I think there is some confusion in this article between symbols and what they can stand for, and I can't help but wonder if that same confusion is at the root of ideas like ultrafinitism.
> One morning in 1976, the Princeton mathematician Edward Nelson (opens a new tab) woke up and experienced a crisis of faith. “I felt the momentary overwhelming presence of one who convicted me of arrogance for my belief in the real existence of an infinite world of numbers,” he reflected decades later (opens a new tab), “leaving me like an infant in my crib reduced to counting on my fingers.”
Friends don't let friends do Platonism.
For real, if you're a formalist you can ask these foundational questions without fear of this kind of dread; they become methodological rather than some kind of metaphysical mess.
My favorite math paper is "Is 10^10^10 a Finite Number?" by David van Dantzig. It lies more on the side of philosophy, so many can understand it easily. I first learned about it many years ago from Van Bendegem's list of strict finitism papers, and I would recommend that list for anyone interested in learning more about strict finitism.
For my personal opinion, strict finitism provides a richer field of study than potential infinitism or actual infinitism. Compare this to Errett Bishop's constructive analysis that requires the calculation of bounds to real numbers, instead of classical analysis only requiring that a real number exists. Much more difficult, though more precise.
I found "On Feasible Numbers" by Vladimir Sazonov to have application for computers. In a feasible mathematics, a large number fails to exist (say, 2^512), but a proof of contradiction must exceed such a large size (perhaps larger than the universe). Likewise, we have unix time that tries to count forever, so we should pick a storage size so large that counting exceeds the heat death of the universe. 10^100 years worth of Planck seconds fits in 501 bits, so round that to 512 bits. 512 bits of time ought to be enough for anybody :)
As someone who has done a whole lot of IEEE 754 floating point math:
> computers handle math just fine
strong disagree tbh
Take the approximate number of subatomic particles in the universe, call it Ω. Define the largest number as Ω² and the smallest number as -Ω², and define the number of decimal numbers between each integer number as Ω², evenly spaced. That should be more than enough numbers. Redefine Ω with each new discovery in physics.
If this seems too conservative to you, like if for some reason you want to talk about the volume of the universe in terms of the width of an up-quark or whatever, feel free to tack on some modifier to my proposed number system.
I wonder how this affects that combining General Relativity with Quantum Mechanics leads to mathematical infinities “that render calculations meaningless.”
Sad that the article doesn't mention wildberger (coincidentally similar last name), an (in)famous math youtuber that's been mentioned on HN several times before. He has a "rational trigonometry series" an approachable way to see how math would work in an ultrafinite setting.
> To Zeilberger, believing in infinity is like believing in God. It’s an alluring idea that flatters our intuitions and helps us make sense of all sorts of phenomena. But the problem is that we cannot truly observe infinity, and so we cannot truly say what it is.
I'm hoping this is just bad writing from Quanta rather than something "ultrafinitists" truly believe.
I really don't think it's that complicated. Even pre-schoolers, competing to see who can say the highest number, quickly learn the concept of infinity. Or elementary school students trying to write 1/3 as a decimal.
Of course you need to be careful mapping infinity onto the physical world. But as a mathematical concept, there is absolutely nothing wrong with it.
> Mathematicians can construct a form of calculus without infinity, for instance, cutting infinitesimal limits out of the picture entirely.
This seems like a useful concept that also doesn't require denying the very obvious concept of infinity.
Related work: https://steve-patterson.com/logic-and-infinity/
Last year I made the mistake of asking ChatGPT what the world would look like if `∞ === -∞` and it took me seriously (I think) and led me on an hours-long dance where in the end it had me trying to prove, mathematically, that `2 > 1` ... and it was at that point I realised that I'm not cut out to think in numbers and maybe it was for the best that I failed my end-of-school Maths exam
It's always annoyed me that maths has loopholes around infinity to keep it consistent
The first thing that came to mind reading the article is that you need only 60ish digits of pi to calculate the circumference of the universe with a resolution of a Planck length, or something like that. You can have all the digits you want, but at some point you are beyond what is possible in reality, and giving back wrong answers for what you are trying to achieve.
Stopped reading at.
> computers handle math just fine with a finite allowance of digits.
Go try and write yourself a robust algorithm to do booleans on polygons or calculate a voronoi diagram. The finite nature of floating point is the mother of all leaky abstractions and bites you in the arse any time you think you are smart enough to roll your own algorithms.
I have always maintained that real mathematics starts when you address the infinite. I don't see how you can get anything interesting (like analysis, differential geometry, topology) without the assumption that the infinite exists.
BTW, the article is really badly written.
Just thinking about when "things" began breaks the brain as there is always something before the "beginning" that you've concluded.
Surprised Wildberger’s youtube channel wasnt in here.
People ask whats the point? For me the study of the infinitesimal vs finite has really helped me better understand issues of precision and approximation in computers. I feel like I know exactly why 1/3 plus 1/5 is not exactly 8/15 in my Calculator app. Or why points in my 3d object face are not coplanar after rotation. Or why games have weird glitches when your character is too far from origin point. Or why a spreadsheet shows rounding issues
From your point of view, infinity stops to matter once you cease to exist in reality. So there is something to consider
finite moments. cherish them.
Normally amps only go up to ten… but this one goes to eleven. …it’s one louder ain’t it!?!
Contrarian thinking can be great because it taps into the intuition that the masses are mostly followers who can be led anywhere, not critical thinkers who've deeply examined what they believe. Being contrarian, then, is akin to staking out a new leadership position.
The space of contrarian ideas is vast, and most of them are probably bad, but, nevertheless, the willingness to hold unconventional, internally consistent views should be celebrated, because it increases diversity of thought. Our collective hive mind grows stronger through heresy.
However, I like my heresy with a splash of axiomatic precision, which is sadly lacking in this article.
>To Zeilberger, believing in infinity is like believing in God. It’s an alluring idea that flatters our intuitions and helps us make sense of all sorts of phenomena.
>“Infinity may or may not exist; God may or may not exist,” he said. “But in mathematics, there should not be any place, neither for infinity nor God.”
>much as, Zeilberger might say, science brought doubt to God’s doorstep.
>But one day, he added, mathematicians will look back and see that this crackpot, like those of yore who questioned gods and superstitions, was right. “Luckily, heretics are no longer burned at the stake.”
LOL. What is this guy's problem?
In school I developed a strong hunch that continuity and infinity are "convenient delusions" we have that allow us to process the otherwise horrific complexity of the world. Experiencing time, sound, or visual motion as continuous, rather than discrete signal inputs is so much simpler. Similarly, the mathematical tricks and shortcuts we can use on well behaved continuous functions are both "unreasonably effective" and... probably not grounded in actual reality[1]? But damn are they convenient.
[1] EDIT: the reasoning is simple, if naive: the largest quantities we can measure are not, in fact, infinitely large, and the smallest ones we can measure are not, in fact, infinitesimally small. So until you show me an infinitesimal or an infinity, you're just making them up!
It's not a new idea, and it's a challenging one to investigate. Without real numbers (that are infinitely long) most of the calculus stops working. And everything that depends on it.
Perhaps we can recover some of it by treating the infinitely variable values as approximations of the more discrete values and then somehow proving that the errors from them stay bounded, for at least some interesting problems.
The article doesn’t really tell us what is gained by rejecting infinity.
And in general, why not also reject zero, negative numbers, irrational numbers, complex numbers, uncomputable numbers, etc.?
Seems like an article about quacks that can’t even agree on what the bounds and rules of their quackery are.
And no discussion of Zeno? Pish.
The idea that nothing is demonstrative of infinity is clearly incorrect.
Take the screen you're reading this on. One pixel is composed of a bunch of different atoms, and once you get down to one of them, that atom subdivides into a bunch of subatomic particles, some of which even have mass. Let's take one of those for argument's sake. Split that, and you get some quarks.
Now let's imagine that's the smallest you can go. We can still talk about half of a down quark, or half of that, etc. Say, uh, infinitely so. There you go, everything is infinite. That wasn't so hard was it?
I don’t understand, and I hope it’s just bad writing.
Certainly you can build a branch of mathematics without an axiom of infinity, and that’s fine, it’s math over finite sets.
However, an axiom of infinity is independent, it doesn’t contradict anything in standard formalizations, and so it doesn’t make sense to say “infinity is wrong”.
He may think the axiom of infinity isn’t satisfied by our real physical world, but that’s not a math question! There’s nothing logically inconsistent about infinite sets nor their axiomatizations.