alt Hacker News> Nobody argued "there aren't any coherent organisations that claim to be Zionist."
You literally said "These aren't coherent organisations, just loose collections of aligned folks."
The Israeli government isn't a 'loose collection of aligned folks'
AIPAC isn't a 'loose collection of aligned folks'
Jewish National Fund isn't a 'loose collection of aligned folks'
> I haven't seen this. But I also haven't seen anyone argue this properly. Instead it's always this "I have secret knowledge" nonsense.
You might be out of your depth here, then. I'd suggest you do some reading before trying to argue your points here, because you're not doing a good job of it.
> in anything but its aim of establishing a Jewish nation-state
And what does it take for a peoples to establish their own 'Jewish nation-state' on a bit of land that had people living there already? Hint: you could quote David Ben-Gurion's own words. I'll start it off for you:
"The Arabs will need to go, but one needs an opportune moment for making it happen, such as a war" - David Ben-Gurion, writing to his son, 1937
"In internal discussions, in instructions to his people, the 'Old Man' demonstrated a clear stand: it was better that the smallest possible number of Arabs remain within the area of the state" - Michael Bar-Zohar, biographer of David Ben-Gurion
"I am for compulsory transfer. I do not see anything immoral in it." - David Ben-Gurion to the Jewish Agency Executive, June 1938.
"Every attack has to end with occupation, destruction and expulsion." - David Ben-Gurion.
- -
"I don't understand your optimism," Ben-Gurion declared. "Why should the Arabs make peace? if I was an Arab leader I would never make terms with Israel. That is natural: we have taken their country. Sure, God promised it to us, but what does that matter to them? Our God is not theirs. We come from Israel, it's true, but two thousand years ago, and what is that to them? There has been anti-Semitism the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They only see one thing: we have come here and stolen their country. Why should they accept that? They may perhaps forget in one or two generations' time, but for the moment there is no chance. So it's simple: we have to stay strong and maintain a powerful army. Our whole policy is there. Otherwise the Arabs will wipe us out."
- The Jewish Paradox by Nahum Goldmann
> The Israeli government isn't a 'loose collection of aligned folks' AIPAC isn't a 'loose collection of aligned folks' Jewish National Fund isn't a 'loose collection of aligned folks'
Sure. These are coherent organisations. Talking about them is meaningful. Talking about "Zionists" is nonsense.
> what does it take for a peoples to establish their own 'Jewish nation-state' on a bit of land that had people living there already?
Lots of options! Ben-Gurion's was a supremacist one. (I wouldn't argue it was fascist.)
Look, you're making a good argument the people and groups you're citing have elements of these traits. Again, that's meaningful. Being trope-y and going off about Zionists will appeal to people who already agree with you, and that's fine, ra ra-ing is fun, but it isn't intellectually honest or particulalry productive other than for stroking the egos of folks who turned this into their pet discussion topic.