Lines of code has always been a terrible metric. But all else being equal it is a measure. If all else is not equal, which is usually the case, then it's not.

A lot of the focus has been on AI recently.

Three years ago we didn't have software where a non-software engineer can describe what they want in English and get working (-ish) software generated by other software? Is that not "software has gotten a lot better"?

Other than that I'm not sure how we measure "software has gotten better". New applications? More features? How do we measure sloppier? Is Google Maps suddenly taking you the wrong way more often? I'm not really doubting your subjective experience but seriously how do tell? I mean a doc is a doc and a spreadsheet is a spreadsheet.

We're also only about 10 months into models that are powerful enough to potentially make a bigger difference and we are still figuring out how to use them best.

>I suspect it's not seen as a problem by providers because more lines generated means more tokens used and hence more billing put out on customers.

I have also grown skeptical of token usage in order to run up my bill! But since I feel like it takes me MORE effort to write LESS lines of code myself, I'd expect a quick and dirty AI-generated solution to be MORE lines of code and cost LESS to generate than a concise/elegant solution in LESS lines of code.

The "lines of code" at this point are basically the same thing as binary code that comes out of a compiler - something you almost never look at and certainly won't try to touch by hand.

The actual "code" is everything driving the harness.

The current problem for this is that the harness is not (yet) deterministic, so it's sort of like having a compiler where your output program works slightly differently every build, and then the compiler tries to just patch the binary programs when you recompile to minimise this problem, or even worse, disassembles the whole thing to figure out what it does, makes the chance, and then recompiles it.

Yeah so all of personal computing—text editing, SVG antialiasing, etc, fits in 20,000 LOC (VPRI's STEPS project) so a million lines of code is 50 reïnventions of personal computing. BUT: it is unlikely that humans would have solved this problem in 20 kLOC. Sussman said “we really don't know how to compute!” as his talk title and LLMs had to ossify some pre-existing voice as the forever programming habitus and it chose a persona that doesn't know how to program—because we don't —and now we are stuck with it. Claude is our tickets, our implementations, our documentation... And if you tell it “hey the node role should not have those permissions, that should be a service account” it will happily do the right thing, but it has no intrinsic sense of taste and the error message it's trying to clear just says “the node role doesn't have that permission and the system prompt says “keep it short, stupid ” and graybeards might be our last bulwark.

People want to do X, so the metric is how much X can be done.

Everyone is over-complicating the explanation. The answer for "why are we fixating on this bad metric" is almost always the same pattern.

Broad audiences need simple metrics to talk about. If the metric itself requires nuance, it's hard to communicate and hard to reason about. It's easier to push the need for nuance from understanding the metric itself down the road to where the metric is applied, which allows everyone to ignore it in immediate conversation.

I've heard it said that measuring productivity of a software developer by lines of code added, is akin to measuring the productivity of an aerospace engineer by mass added.

It is a metric. It is often not a good metric. But it is easy to measure.

It is a very valid question. My intution (no grounding) is to the model training. Optimizations traditionally have worked well in human wrote software with either experience of the developer , usage of architectural patterns or a second ir third pass of fine tuning. In case of model written code - (e/p one token at a time), only possible orchitectural optimization is either with a strict guardrail on patterns to use for a specific implementation OR by giving a second or third optmization path. All of which burns more tokens, but can lead to better software.

It's a huge flex if the alternative is no code at all. Reward hacking aside, LOC resonates with me in the sense that I've seen 10+ projects to fruition that wouldn't have even begun without an agentic harness and an LLM.

It's like the difference between doing stock price predictions with binary "up" or "down" histories and trying to figure out how to normalize actual price histories (basically impossible). The binary work gives a well-defined signal.

Don't compare human loc with machine loc.

Compare machine to machine (as these headlines come) and discount that by a factor.

I don’t think the flex here is the amount of code alone. Their goal is to show that AI can improve productivity, the number of lines is just the proxy to that. This article is a marketing piece after all.

Now someone can argue that lines of code are not a good proxy of engineering productivity, but I wouldn’t be surprised if the audience they target with this content is not the HN commenters of this thread.

Because sloppy code and doesn't matter. He wrote he completed it in 1/10th time. That's equivalent to 1/10th the engineers.

That is a business win. That is really all that matters in capitalism.

The flex is a direct insult to your face. He is shitting on the faces of all software engineers (me included). It is equivalent to saying we don't need you to code anymore. One man can produce 10x the code.

So why am i voting him up even though he's shitting on my face? Because what he says is true. I value honesty and people who say things like it is. Yes my identity as a software engineer is getting dismantled before my very eyes. But the solution to this problem isn't some delusional statement about not understanding what he's flexing about. We're not stupid. Everyone on this thread understands his flex. The difference is some people like you don't want to understand it.

Like seriously. He literally wrote it was completed in 1/10th of the time and you expect me to believe that YOU don't know what HE is flexing about? Be real. You're not stupid.