It's funny you say that because you can absolutely value 13 black after it's been bet on. It's actually really easy, I would expect a middle schooler to be able to do so and intuitive understand the concept.

> There valuations are always based on expectations of huge growth, not current value.

They're primarily a function of fund size. Everything else that can be fudged is fudged in order to make it look sane.

Funds make their money by taking a cut of AUM. Thus, they're incentivized to make bigger funds. They also can't spread out their portfolio over hundreds of tiny investments without losing control, so they need to write big checks. When you write a big check, the founders need a big post-money number to maintain a reasonable percentage of the cap table. It doesn't hurt that big valuations make everyone look better.

As money flooded into VC, the funds got bigger, the checks got larger, and the number of unicorns shot up in direct proportion to the number of large funds competing for their equity. The revenue projections used to justify this charade were never really important, and couldn't be proven in any case.

It's indeed not that black and white. Growth and revenue can happen quite early and they are usually seen as signs that a company might eventually become profitable. The whole point of VC funding is to put all available resources in growth, not in profit. Investments in profitable companies aren't really venture capital investments. Different class of investors that do that, generally.

Where the whole thing starts looking like gambling is when companies get huge rounds based on essentially no proof whatsoever that the thing will ever grow or have revenue. And when the idea is basically "we'll pay famous people to send greetings to people" we're in obviously stupid money territory. That was never going to have the revenues to back up the inflated valuation. And somebody still sank a few tens of millions in that to find that out the hard way. That company had a paper valuation of a billion. But it doesn't necessarily mean all those tens of millions were spent and lost. Investors might commit the money but it's usually conditional on growth targets and milestones. When shit goes south, they'll pull the brakes and the money stops flowing. Good investors wouldn't wait until all the money is gone to do that.

The reason these investments happen is that VCs mostly aren't investing their own cash. They are being paid to make investments and to inflate their portfolios. By the time the shit hits the fan, they'll have gotten their payoff. It all looks great until it doesn't. And inflated valuations make them look shit hot even when they are clearly not. This attracts more capital for them to invest.

Of course at some point the shit does hit the fan and the money evaporates. That's when you get acqui-hires and other constructions that are usually portrayed as a successful exit that, again, makes the VCs look like they know what they are doing. This is all about damage control that is about both financials and reputations. Never mind that it's effectively a fire sale at that point. But investors get to swap their bad shares for good shares, and founders get to work in somebody else's company for stock options. And the "buying" company gets some nice people and they stay best buddies with the investors they just bailed out who might typically also be investors in those companies. In the end the madness gets written off against the overall fund performance. It only takes a few good gambles to work out for everybody to come out smelling like roses.

> It's like asking someone playing roulette to value "13 black", after they bet on it.

Even worse, because you don't get better odds or payouts by persuading others to bet on 13 black, but you do when they invest in the company you've backed.

I have a few friends who have gone into VC either starting their own or an existing. Hearing about some of the companies they are invested in makes me realize that half of these show HN posts are legit multi billion companies already with 2-5 person teams. As you’ve said, low to zero profit, and seemingly no corner on the market.

It’s like coin collecting, without the currency part - just hoping someone one day sees it, and wants to put them on their coin on their shelf. I can’t make sense of it, maybe that’s the point. I miss when VCs cared about helping people change the world, better or worse (ideally better).

current profits (The actual measure of value) that would justify their valuation

That's...not how value works at all. If it was, all of these rapidly growing companies that haven't made a profit yet would be worth zero. Would you pay $1 for any of the big AI labs? I sure as fuck would.

Value is more about the present value of future cashflows. And it turns out that estimating future cashflows of extremely fast growing companies is really hard.

This is why, all these people are called founders and never entrepreneurs an almost dirty word in VC circles...

I think you are missing the point. I think the software business has become undesirable for VC investment. I am seeing that in the market from the otherside. People think there is no moat. Which I absolutely disagree but yea.

VC invest is same as buying a house. Someone has valued your house is worth x, thats why it is valued at x. There were people willing to invest at 1B valuation now they are not. Market has moved. Imagine, if the area where you bought the house, suddenly is not desirable or theres no one willing to pay for it, then value of your house will go down, in some scenarios to zero. It is as simple as that.

>> The companies NEVER have current profits (The actual measure of value) that would justify their valuation.

Lol. "Profits" is old person talk. Nobody needs profits. The most valuable company in the world hasnt shown a dime in profit. That doesnt mean everyone cannot get rich. You just have to know the right people. That is all that matters these days. Having profits also means paying taxes... a fools game. Profits are just a sign of a weak expansion strategy and so will generally reduce valuations!

[dead]

> 17 black

Let it ride !

> We need to stop pretending the VC valuations are meaningful.

When I was a kid, the valuation of a company was based on the amount of profit that it did taking into account the cost of getting it.

The day that the USA abandoned capitalism for speculative-finance was a bad day for the world economy.