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albert_etoday at 10:23 AM3 repliesview on HN

Interesting

I did not know human urinary tract was suboptimal.

Are there examples of "discontinuous" evolution where a chance mutation stumbled upon a much better way to do something that allowed a species to jump the gap?

I imagine it would be very rare because chance mutations in a single individual that confer extraordinary survival / mating advantage to offset entire population would be rare like being a superman among men.


Replies

PetitPrincetoday at 12:16 PM

Antibiotic resistance happens all the time (at least in our artificial world) and it's a life or death situation for the bacteria.

But you were probably asking for multicellular eukaryote organism; you may be interested in the concept of saltation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saltation_(biology) . Behind the concept of the thing itself it's interesting to think about the mechanism behind it. Regular evolution is gradual (point mutation leads to a maybe slightly different protein, which has only a relatively small scale effect but you gain or lose function over many generation), but for a saltatory evolution you most probably need radical changes in the DNA, like duplication (of a single gene, multiple gene or whole chromosome), horizontal exchanges, etc.

It's possible in plant but in animal more often than not it's not beneficial at all to have such event. Famously if you have an extra chromosome nr. 21 you get Down syndrome.

teekerttoday at 11:04 AM

"I imagine it would be very rare because chance mutations in a single individual that confer extraordinary survival / mating advantage to offset entire population would be rare like being a superman among men."

-> This also depends on population size, if there is a bottleneck event (ie 99.99 percent of some species dying) then among the 100's of survivors perhaps there could be a superman. Either because this person got lucky, or the rest got unlucky. But in general the distribution of traits is quite continuous, given large populations.

It's also good to keep in mind that us biologists have messy definitions, ie we call specimen A and B the same species when they produce fertile offspring. Some species produce offspring but infertile (Horse-Donkey, Lion-Tiger). But what if A and B have fertile offspring and B and C do, but A and C do not? The whole definition of species falls apart (it leads to a paradox).

We have a lot of that in biology. You need to learn to deal with it (sunglasses dropping down), and assign uncertainties to terms you learn about, they are often just our attempts to name boxes on continuous, multidimensional scales.

teekerttoday at 10:51 AM

Well, what is suboptimal... One would engineer it differently, it makes a weird, seemingly unnecessary, loop around some other tracts. However, being a biologist I can also imagine that if we'd reroute the thing in someone using surgery, that person suddenly gets more infections because bacteria find their way up the tract more easily (no idea, but could be!). The point is... It's a mess based on some earlier mess, but it works, and changing one part in this mess can lead to unpredictable results.

As for "discontinuous evolution"... Again, what is discontinuous? I'm sure there are events to be found of which the probability of them occurring is so small and the effects so large that they'd fall into someone's definition of "discontinuous". But I think there is by definition no such thing as discontinuous evolution. If it occurred, it had a non-0 probability of occurring, then again, maybe the universe is infinite and everything has a non-zero probability of occurring. This is getting philosophical haha. Maybe listen to some Mindscape podcasts (Sean Caroll).

Actually rabbits eat their excrement again. That's also probably not how an engineer would make it (or an intelligent designer would design it, since we seems to be going in that direction ;) ).