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Zakyesterday at 7:30 PM21 repliesview on HN

For exactly the border search scenario, I wish smartphones could be imaged and restored as easily as PCs. Imagine booting the phone from a flash drive, making an encrypted image of the phone on said drive, and writing a fresh OS before reaching the border.

There's no deception required to protect sensitive data or avoid the seizure of an expensive phone. Consent to unlocking the phone, refuse to unlock the drive. The drive gets seized and you go on your way (if you're a US citizen entering the USA).

Some time ago, Android with a custom recovery could come close to that, but it was fussy and as far as I know, no longer viable. Increased use of TPMs for storing credentials seems to be at least one of the reasons.


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solid_fuelyesterday at 7:36 PM

It may be fun to fantasize about these things some times, but there is no technical solution to tyranny. Laws are not like code, intent matters. Ultimately if the intent is that the government wants to see your private data, hiding it in any way will be charged - it doesn't matter if you jump through hoops to avoid this specific instance.

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grapheneosyesterday at 9:17 PM

GrapheneOS has built-in encrypted backup and restore. It backs up the same data transferred by Google's device transfer feature for moving to a new phone which is nearly all app data, the data in the home directory, contacts and a bit more. Certain apps such as Signal encrypt their own data with another layer of encryption using a hardware keystore key. Signal's own backup system needs to be used for that, although it can just be used as a way to get data into the system backup.

It's worth noting wiping a device shortly before an anticipated search could also be considered destruction of evidence in the same way. It doesn't have to be done after a request for the data to be considered that.

> There's no deception required to protect sensitive data or avoid the seizure of an expensive phone. Consent to unlocking the phone, refuse to unlock the drive. The drive gets seized and you go on your way (if you're a US citizen entering the USA).

This was likely the best move for him to take. They could have held him for a while and wasted his time but eventually would have had to give him access to a lawyer and let him go. Unless they had a recording of him entering a PIN/password, they were nearly certainly not going to get his data from it. He very likely didn't gain anything from wiping it.

He did help every GrapheneOS user by spreading awareness of the duress PIN/password. It was designed around an adversary aware of it and therefore not wanting to attempt using a PIN/password obtained via coercion. In the future, we want to integrate the feature into the secure element rate limiting for key derivation so it can't be avoided by exploiting the OS.

grishkayesterday at 10:51 PM

Those "nandroid" backups weren't "close" to that, they were literally that initially. Then, when Android phones started coming with the /sdcard partition mapped to the internal flash memory (a subdirectory of /data) instead of an actual SD card, the /data partition backup mechanism was changed to copy individual files into some sort of archive, but the end result remained the same.

You can still do it on modern Android devices, as long as the bootloader is unlocked. Yes, the file system is encrypted, but a modern custom recovery is able decrypt and mount it.

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skinfaxitoday at 12:36 AM

You have to ask yourself why this isn't possible anymore. Similar to how recording calls used to be possible but no longer. I don't know why it is but it is awfully strange that they keep tightening the belt on what we can do with our own devices.

sfdlkj3jk342atoday at 12:39 AM

I really really want this for GrapheneOS. The current backup situation is terrible and nowhere near being able to easily image and restore the entire phone (or at least user data).

fhdkweigyesterday at 7:34 PM

Also, it is just a nice idea if you are prone to losing phones. Backups are good for all kinds of reasons.

opanyesterday at 10:47 PM

PinePhone will boot off a microSD before the internal flash, so you could have a clean OS on the card and your real one on the flash. The SD card is under the back cover with the battery and SIM, so chances are they won't think to try to remove it.

trencedampyesterday at 9:04 PM

There's a way simpler solution and it's just to leave your phone at home and put your SIM in a different handset without all your data on it

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hirvi74yesterday at 11:38 PM

It'd be less of a hassle to buy a burner phone to travel with. It's not a felony to not bring your main phone when leaving the country.

unethical_bantoday at 12:31 AM

I agree. Here's my method.

I have my passwords on proton pass with 2fa. I back my pics to private cloud storage. I keep 2fa backup codes in my wallet.

Wiping the phone on a whim is a minor inconvenience. Full image restoration would be neat.

rootusrootusyesterday at 8:17 PM

I've restored iPhones before, and it does seem pretty simple. Easier than PCs for sure. It's not instant, but the basic configuration is restored pretty quickly while the bulk data restoration happens in the background while you're able to use the phone.

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dyauspitrtoday at 12:20 AM

Isn’t this basically what you do with an iPhone. You reset/format it then it gets back to its original state with iCloud?

echelon_muskyesterday at 8:24 PM

> ...making an encrypted image of the phone on said drive... refuse to unlock the drive

How is this any different than refusing to unlock the phone? It just seems you've added unnecessary extra steps.

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pannyyesterday at 8:18 PM

Think for a moment. What is the difference between giving them a password which wipes the phone and giving them a password which opens a blank phone?

It's the same thing. They punched in a code, they are presented with a wiped phone. Can they prove the guy gave them a distress password and wasn't simply carrying a wiped phone to begin with? No, but they just need to imply that is the reason to charge him with the felony.

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victorbjorklundyesterday at 7:58 PM

Really? Does it take a long time to recover the phone? Haven’t really ever needed to recover a backup

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yapyapyesterday at 10:08 PM

> refuse to unlock the drive. The drive gets seized and you go on your way (if you're a US citizen entering the USA)

… yeah I doubt that nowadays honestly

ratelimitsteveyesterday at 8:57 PM

I mean, you could ship your real phone to w/e destination ahead of you and bring a $50 burner to the border. If you're a person of interest this won't work because they can monitor you and the destination but if you're a regular schmuck then a burner that never touches your private data or accounts and has a bunch of dummy stuff on it will get you past the border goons.

Razenganyesterday at 10:22 PM

How about every civilian banding together and refusing to comply?

in before those fucking "I hAvE nOtHiNg tO hIdE" twats

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GeekyBearyesterday at 9:18 PM

> For exactly the border search scenario, I wish smartphones could be imaged and restored as easily as PCs.

You're always been able to backup and restore your iPhone to your local Windows PC or a Mac using free first party software from Apple.

Aurornisyesterday at 10:11 PM

> I wish smartphones could be imaged and restored as easily as PCs. Imagine booting the phone from a flash drive, making an encrypted image of the phone on said drive, and writing a fresh OS before reaching the border.

Backing up and restoring an iPhone is extremely easy. You don't need to imagine all of this flash drive or encrypted imaging stuff. You plug it into your computer and do a backup. You can then wipe the phone through the menus. Restoring from the same computer is easy.

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