alt Hacker News>People are cruel to prisoners because they enjoy being cruel to prisoners
I don't enjoy being cruel to convicted criminals. I would much prefer they not commit crime, and that there be no need for the punishment.
>especially given that free will is inconceivable;
I too, have no free will in the matter. I am just a clockwork mechanism, operating as the random universe has not only ordained, but I cannot operate otherwise. Coincidentally, the nature of my mechanism makes me immune to your arguments, and no change in behavior is forthcoming. Fun, huh?
>mass incarceration and poor prison conditions seem to increase crime
Statistics say otherwise. Crime is down across the board the last few decades.
>If we are to have prisons, let's be honest about why they exist: people like them.
I agree. I like criminals being locked away from the rest of us.
Replies
>I too, have no free will in the matter. I am just a clockwork mechanism, operating as the random universe has not only ordained, but I cannot operate otherwise. Coincidentally, the nature of my mechanism makes me immune to your arguments, and no change in behavior is forthcoming. Fun, huh?
I don't understand what point you think you're proving. Yes, your actions were determined by the laws of physics based on factors outside your control. This implies that it is incoherent to condemn you as a person for an immoral action because you could not have behaved differently. It does not imply that your actions are good or that you should behave the way you do.
I disagree with you and think you are being obstinate. You should change those things. But I don't think you should be caused to suffer, even though you are guilty of causing others to suffer.
>Statistics say otherwise. Crime is down across the board the last few decades.
Look at Figure 1 in this paper and tell me you see a correlation:
https://vera-institute.files.svdcdn.com/production/downloads...
Perhaps I overstated the case somewhat. The evidence is that mass incarceration in certain jurisdictions increases crime. But overall, the notion that mass incarceration is one of our best tools against crime is wrong. It is not very effective, very expensive, has deleterious effects on communities, and is cruel. And the notion that mass incarceration is an important tool is so thoroughly debunked by now that I think it's fair to call it an excuse.
I'd like for conditions that lead to people not feeling the need to become criminals in the first place.
Which means, housing first, end the war on drugs, provide access to mental and physical healthcare, provide a reasonable living minimum wage and some sort of UBI for those that fall through the cracks.
Ah yes the what-aboutism statistics?
So why is europe doing it different and overall better/cheaper? Because europe actually tries to help people
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> I would much prefer they not commit crime, and that there be no need for the punishment.
Because our justice system is notoriously good at convicting only people who actually committed a crime.