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HarHarVeryFunnytoday at 1:20 PM7 repliesview on HN

The factuality problem with LLMs isn't because they are non-deterministic or statistically based, but simply because they operate at the level of words, not facts. They are language models.

You can't blame an LLM for getting the facts wrong, or hallucinating, when by design they don't even attempt to store facts in the first place. All they store are language statistics, boiling down to "with preceding context X, most statistically likely next words are A, B or C". The LLM wasn't designed to know or care that outputting "B" would represent a lie or hallucination, just that it's a statistically plausible potential next word.


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biophysboytoday at 4:31 PM

I think this is why I get much more utility out of LLMs with writing code. Code can fail if the syntax is wrong; small perturbations in the text (e.g. add a newline instead of a semicolon) can lead to significant increases in the cost function.

Of course, once an LLM is asked to create a bespoke software project for some complex system, this predictability goes away, the trajectory of the tokens succumbs to the intrinsic chaos of code over multi-block length scales, and the result feels more arbitrary and unsatisfying.

I also think this is why the biggest evangelists for LLMs are programmers, while creative writers and journalists are much more dismissive. With human language, the length scale over which tokens can be predicted is much shorter. Even the "laws" of grammar can be twisted or ignored entirely. A writer picks a metaphor because of their individual reading/life experience, not because its the most probable or popular metaphor. This is why LLM writing is so tedious, anodyne, sycophantic, and boring. It sounds like marketing copy because the attention model and RL-HF encourage it.

coldteatoday at 3:40 PM

>but simply because they operate at the level of words, not facts. They are language models.

Facts can be encoded as words. That's something we also do a lot for facts we learn, gather, and convey to other people. 99% of university is learning facts and theories and concept from reading and listening to words.

Also, even when directly observing the same fact, it can be interpreted by different people in different ways, whether this happens as raw "thought" or at the conscious verbal level. And that's before we even add value judgements to it.

>All they store are language statistics, boiling down to "with preceding context X, most statistically likely next words are A, B or C".

And how do we know we don't do something very similar with our facts - make a map of facts and concepts and weights between them for retrieving them and associating them? Even encoding in a similar way what we think of as our "analytic understanding".

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AlecSchuelertoday at 1:55 PM

In a way though those things aren't so different as they might first appear. The factual answer is traditionally the most plausible response to many questions. They don't operate on any level other than pure language but there are a heap of behaviours which emerge from that.

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toddmoreytoday at 1:32 PM

Yeah, that’s very well put. They don’t store black-and-white they store billions of grays. This is why tool use for research and grounding has been so transformative.

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Forgeties79today at 1:50 PM

> You can't blame an LLM for getting the facts wrong, or hallucinating, when by design they don't even attempt to store facts in the first place

On one level I agree, but I do feel it’s also right to blame the LLM/company for that when the goal is to replace my search engine of choice (my major tool for finding facts and answering general questions), which is a huge pillar of how they’re sold to/used by the public.

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emptyfiletoday at 3:05 PM

[dead]

wistytoday at 1:44 PM

I think they are much smarter than that. Or will be soon.

But they are like a smart student trying to get a good grade (that's how they are trained!). They'll agree with us even if they think we're stupid, because that gets them better grades, and grades are all they care about.

Even if they are (or become) smart enough to know better, they don't care about you. They do what they were trained to do. They are becoming like a literal genie that has been told to tell us what we want to hear. And sometimes, we don't need to hear what we want to hear.

"What an insightful price of code! Using that API is the perfect way to efficiently process data. You have really highlighted the key point."

The problem is that chatbots are trained to do what we want, and most of us would rather have a syncophant who tells us we're right.

The real danger with AI isn't that it doesn't get smart, it's that it gets smart enough to find the ultimate weakness in its training function - humanity.

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