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1980phipsitoday at 5:39 PM3 repliesview on HN

Any idea why swapping didn't pan out for Tesla? My understanding is they are doing that in China.


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Veservtoday at 7:06 PM

What do you mean? It did pan out for Tesla. Faking a single demo granted them 75% more ZEV emissions credit government subsidys [1]. That increased their profits by hundreds of millions of dollars.

All they had to do was go on stage and “swap” a battery without any clear video of the process and never “demonstrate” it ever again.

This is a company known for faking prominent demos like the FSD demo (where it crashed into a wall during filming), the solar roof demo (where they used regular roof tiles and claimed they were solar panels), the optimus demo (where they were teleoperated), etc.

Assuming they even did a battery swap, for which the official demo presents no clear video evidence, preferring overhead views over a close-up of the process or a glass enclosure to see the inner workings, it was at best a one-off custom-made device at the time. The one battery-swap station they claim existed has zero stories of any actual battery swaps, instead only evidence of it operating as a regular Supercharger [2].

[1] https://thewaroncars.org/episode-88-tesla-is-a-fraud-with-ed...

[2] https://slate.com/technology/2022/05/elon-musk-tesla-twitter...

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labcomputertoday at 8:54 PM

> Any idea why swapping didn't pan out for Tesla?

~~Two~~ Three things:

1. California changed the rules shortly after Tesla demonstrated their swap station, which practically eliminated the tax credit for battery swap (at the behest of lobbyists for Toyota, who were backing Hydrogen Fuel Cell technology). Specifically, the credit would be prorated by the percent of “fast refueling” sessions a car did, so EVs primarily charged at home received almost nothing while HFCV got the full credit. Building swap capability adds complexity to the car (think about all the fluid connections), which isn’t worth it without credits.

2. It was also around this time that a Model S ran over an anvil (or something) which punctured the pack and started a fire. In response, Tesla added an aluminum battery shield, which further complexifies swapping and was probably the final nail in the coffin.

3. The logistics of storing your very expensive battery (so you could get it back later) basically make the system unworkable. When the Tesla swap station at Harris Ranch (you can still see the former building, next to Harris BBQ, which currently houses the restrooms) was operational, you had to make a reservation some hours in advance so that Tesla could have a pack ready and be ready to take your pack to/from storage.

3a. Gresham’s Law. Without eventually returning the pack to the original owner, there is an adverse selection problem: people with very weak packs will gladly roll the dice on a swap, but those with brand new packs are reluctant. So the average quality of packs in the swap network will quickly decline creating a death spiral.

3b. You could probably fix 3a by leasing the battery (or selling battery-as-a-service) but car buyers mostly don’t like that, especially back in 2013.

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barbazootoday at 5:47 PM

Probably because the economics just don't make sense here. You'd have to have so many compatible cars on the road, driving all day with no opportunity to charge. I'm having a hard time imagining a place I've been to in North America where that'd seem logical.

> they are doing that in China

Are they actually doing that at scale?

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