Ask HN: How can we solve the loneliness epidemic?

It's the phones dude. It's literally just the phones. Get rid of the phones and you fix it.

Todays https://ripplegame.app/ had an interesting connection to this topic...

It seems that once again striving for efficiency in society is bad in some way for the social part of humans...

It cannot be solved, at least not in the way I think people want it to be.

We’re lonely because we are wired to avoid rejection and uncomfortable social situations, and because technology has given us hundreds of alternatives to sitting in the mess of connecting with people.

You can only solve it in your own life - by being courageous and spending more of your time in the physical world than in the digital one, willing to gro through the shitty feelings that come with being a human trying to meet other humans.

You cannot solve it for other people. There’s no sexy solution here. Meetup.com or whatever dating app or tech platform or not for profit will not fix it, because it takes individuals choosing the hard path and that will never happen en masse.

Is there a loneliness epidemic? Or is this viewing history through rose colored glasses?

Is the shift from how society used to work to how society has come to work real or just a grammatically correct statement?

Statistics are biased by those who compute them. Have we asked everyone or inferred and p-hacked up data points?

The single salary family is largely a myth. A relatively small percentage of the population ever achieved that. Is the same true for loneliness? Is it a bigger problem now than it has been?

Is this like in medicine where we think ADHD is up, cancer is up... it's an epidemic! When in reality as a percent of society things are normal, we just had no idea before how prevalent those things were before we measured.

Some ideas:

- Get rid of AI chat bots, limit social media use to federated platforms, get out more.

- Encourage cities to build spaces for people rather than cars where folks can meet up without the pressure to buy things and leave. Spaces for walking and hanging out.

It’s all about fostering community again, and that’s more than just shared calendars and town events.

It’s “third places” where folks can just hang out and work, play, share, and commiserate without having to pay money to do so.

It’s bringing back establishments that promote lingering and loitering, like food halls or coffee shops, rather than chasing out folks.

It’s about building community centers inside apartment complexes, more public green space, more venues and forums.

Giving people space that doesn’t require a form of payment is the best approach, because humans will take advantage of what’s out there naturally. Sure, structure helps, but space is the issue at present I believe.

Make a social network that is centered around people who live in a 1 kilometer radius

Make them interact and do things, generally they will be less toxic because it will reduce their online disinhibition effect.

Make them have meals, meet, walk at the park, whatever.

I doubt we can solve this for other people. Each person must solve it for themselves, but for most people the solution will be joining a church and attending weekly. From there, get involved with a ministry, that will lead to appreciation dinners, which will lead to getting invited to the non-religous stuff the people are involved with.

https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2019/01/31/are-relig...

Somewhat a tangent response

I have a fear of crowds and bums. Not where I'm paralyzed/medicated but one thing I'm trying to do is go downtown and do street photography. I wonder how do I say no to a stranger asking me for money. Or fear of getting robbed. It's not like my camera gear is that expensive but yeah. This would push me to get out there more as I've lived in the same place for 10 yrs and I haven't really explored/gone around much. Other than when I did Uber Eats, I would go all over the place. I would get wasted/drink at bars but end up with nothing end of the day, temporary day-long friends.

Funny I was at the gym yesterday, guy said hello to me, as a guy that keeps to himself usually (unless around friends) I gave him a bad look (not on purpose) and then I responded. I'll say hello next time I see him.

Yeah for me it's just fear and lack of exposure. I do make a lot of "work friends" go on walks. But yeah real friends I think I have 4 or 5 lifelong real friends. Women nothing, haven't been laid in like 12 years pretty said to say. Unfortunately it's something I value myself like "I'm a loser by not getting laid". Even though rest of my life is good, 2BR apt, sporty car, six-fig job, but yeah. It's my social awkardness, but I lift/improve myself, cutting down on weight I want abs. Idk I'm not going after women anymore either just trying to live life now, do shit, get out of debt, get out of 9-5, mental freedom.

It's funny if it's guys I'm very "charismatic" like I can be "everyone's friend" which doesn't work out due to conflicting interest. To that end it's really about taking an active interest in the other person, engaging them, asking them questions and remembering.

My thing with women is I don't get along with them like a guy (where I don't want anything from them physically). If they're not attractive then it's easier to talk to them but yeah, I guess that comes from a desperation mindset.

Having kids (with the right partner and good intentions as a parent) is a great way to avoid feeling lonely.

The kid(s) are tremendous source of connection. You may trade for a feeling of exhaustion, overwhelming responsibility, etc. but a lot less loneliness.

Also go a step further and join support groups for parents. Community resources where kids play and parents can hang out and chat. Connection is built through shared experiences, and parenting is an experience you can share with other parents.

Between having kids and participating in events with other parents, there will be a lot less opportunities to feel lonely.

I’m loving the comments here. But I confess I exoected a ‘social technology’ solution to the problem!! Like “casserole” in the UK, which connects people in a neighbourhood with others who need food and a visit. You make a casserole and take it round. I’ve not seen this in person but it seems like a great application of tech to help ward off loneliness… You could easily extend this to “dog friends” or “cat friends”, where you’re connected with someone who’d like you to visit them and bring your dog or cat for an introduction and a pat

I remember watching old American educational videos for teens from something like the 50s (on YT). They talk A LOT about how to be likable and how much work one has to put into being accepted and included. The tone is very much "if you want friends and not be excluded (and being excluded is your own moral failing) you need to work on it".

I feel people have forgotten that. Having friends isn't easy. You do actually need to put in the effort - everyone needs to put in the effort, not just "the extrovert" that "adopts" you. And not just effort, it takes *SKILLS* that you need to actively develop and maintain.

So now we have generations where no one really thought us the skills or instilled the value of "it's a YOU problem". Everyone is just waiting for someone else to do the hard work. Even more stupidly, people might be lonely, but they are also very picky and if the person isn't exactly what they are feeling at the moment they flake/don't engage. And then they are surprised they don't have a surplus of friends when they need them.

So how do we resolve this? By telling people it's their our damn problem and fault. And no, I'm not saying ignore it on a societal level, I'm saying that the public policy to fix this is to start educating people that social engagement requires effort and skills. Maybe take those old American movies as inspiration (naturally remove all the sexist and racist bullshit).

I'm starting to host bi-weekly after work soirees.

It's simple. Anyone you meet casually and get a nice vibe from - just invite them - you will see their face light up like they won a lottery...cause they did - your lottery.

Tell them that you're hosting a special gathering with interesting people you've recently met ( that way everyone starts from 0 )

bonus points: Make sure that your list is as balanced as possible with as many different types of humans ( age/gender/race/education/talent/interests ) add your weights into any criteria as you see fit, but keep in mind the more the blend the spicier the magic and the more you will grow.

If they want to bring a special friend ( great! but just say one for now ) Lubricate with some light wine/beers/alcoholic beverages (dont worry most will bring their own ) .. add some nice chill-house ambient music .. and let the magic begin.

Become the change you seek, it's intoxicating.

I'll say the same thing that I always do. For some reason, it's not popular, hereabouts, but it's worked for me, for over 45 years.

Get involved with volunteer/gratis work. Join an advocacy/charity group. Do stuff for free.

HN members have really valuable skills that can make an enormous difference.

Joining a volunteer organization brings together passionate, action-minded people that already share a common platform.

It can also teach us a lot. My personal career was significantly helped by what I learned, doing volunteer work.

Boom. Loneliness problem solved.

Maybe our built environment shouldn't consist solely of isolated houses in isolated gated communities where we drive our kids and sit in isolated cars in the school dropoff/pickup lines.

I'm not lonely, but occasionally wish I had some meaningful friendships. Most people who want to be my "friend" just want something from me -- a job, help them move, buy their dumb products, watch their kids, drive them to the airport, whatever else they want to dump on me.

I get that comes with friendships, but people go from zero to super favors in 2.1 seconds these days. Seems too burdensome, so I typically tell people to F off -- easier that way.

My wife will drag me to some social events. I have a hard time relating to any of the guys. The ones I meet are all obsessed with sports and entertainment. Did you watch the game? No, oh...well; did you go skiing last week? No, Oh...I gotta go.

I like a good football game, but the world is burning; I can't pretend it isn't. I'd like to help but don't know how. I just work on building my business to have enough resources to possibly make a slight difference; maybe I'll die without actually doing so, and it would have been better to just distract myself until I die, but my brain doesn't work that way.

Social media is just one big psyops. I liked X until major players started taking over and now it seems like Claude owns X as everyone just posts how Claude Code just vibe coding them 4,000 bitcoins in 24 hours. Quit all social media because it's just distorted.

To be honest, gave up on being friends with anyone about 10 years ago.

My sense: human relationships come from repeated interaction over time. This is why college is easy for friendships and suburbs aren't.

The solution is very different for someone who is within walking distance of a neighborhood coffee shop vs someone who isn't.

It seems like there's 3 levels of solutions recommended here:

1) Individual: join recurring activities, volunteer, join communities, get a dog, work on yourself, sports/physical hobbies

2) Founder: Create third spaces, host events, or just create and initiate activities that bring people together

3) Policy: Urban design reform, third spaces. Make it easier for more third spaces to exist and more walkable neighborhoods.

It's like capex vs opex. A lot of the fixes recommended here are very high ongoing daily effort for individuals. But this is such an important thing for humans! So it would be better if the built environment was better, and human interaction was easier and lower effort to get for more people. More walkable high trust places, more third places.

Should there be lots more affinity based master planned communities? Probably yes. More in person theme parks and activity places? Probably yes. More games like Pokemon Go? Probably yes. Better walkability in existing cities? Probably yes. etc.

tl;dr at an individual level, these suggestions are good, but the fact that so much individual level effort is needed imo points to more of a need for macro solutions so it's lower energy for most people to have nice local walkable communities and friends (like people have in university, cities post-university, and in retirement homes)

Everyone always gets the causality reversed. Social media didn't cause the epidemic, it filled a niche to help cure the epidemic. People were lonely long before the internet arrived, the internet just made it easier for those lonely people to connect to each other. And now many of them prefer the internet over socializing with people they don't care for that much in person.

In other words, the problem is structural. Moving to a new city where you don't know anyone, only work with people for a few years, and where there are no longer institutions like the church, how is anybody supposed to meet anyone? Meetups? Half the people can't even afford a car.

There is no solution other than meeting a lifelong partner.

The wording sounds like this is a problem or even something to solve. Why?

But let's start with the basics: - Why are these people not countable? Shoudn't we not at least just be able to get a good statistical number on this? We do the same for all people on (and off) this planet. - Let's assume we have a number: how to we know that they sit and are alone and every day? This sounds to me like an overspecific approach. - Why would anyone join local groups? You normally can't find people you want to interact with within a specific range, that's the great thing about social media or the internet overall: you don't need to be in a geographic range.

And the last one: what are you trying to solve here?

When you have large, strong, healthy families, these tend to be hubs for others. They can serve as warm hubs for others to gather around.

When these are gone, loneliness epidemics follow.

Third places. Become a regular at game night, church (if you're into that), join a bowling league, join organized dinners through meetup.com or whatever the modern version is, take up martial arts, take adult education classes outside your existing interests. There are more options out there than ever before.

Read "Surely You're Joking, Mr. Feinman" and really absorb the part where he explains how he had so many crazy adventures and encounters.

In the USA, the loneliness epidemic is compounded by isolation. A large portion of our society has moved into suburban communities that are largely impersonal. There is very little in the way of in-person community outside of churches or political movements that only certain kinds of people want to be involved with.

With the Internet giving us the ability to interact with our chosen niche with little effort, we are willing to accept this still-impersonal alternative to our stagnant communities.

I have found that, as a city-dweller, I benefit from separating myself from social media and going out into the world looking for more personal connections, but this is somewhat of a privilege afforded to those people who live in more densely populated areas. Even then, my distance from social media can sometimes be a handicap when you interact with people who are still reliant on it to coordinate everything.

For most people, the social opportunities that existed in the 70's through the 90's simply doesn't exist anymore. If you aren't using social media, you're practically being anti-social, but there is something inherently anti-social about social media to begin with, so you're screwed if you do and screwed if you don't.

The US is structured to promote loneliness.

If you want to fix it:

- More free public spaces (parks with benches, squares)

- More free public events and activities (free concerts, art installations, plays)

- Greater physical proximity (it's hard to make eye contact if everyone drives)

- Wealth distribution (create a society where one's value is not based on their net worth)

- Encourage days off for community service

In other words, provide socially-funded incentives for people to be close to one another physically and remove income as a measure of value.

Sorry, wrong diagnosis in my opinion.

There's not a loneliness epidemic, there's a selfishness epidemic. Nobody does anything for anyone anymore (unless there's money involved, of course).

That's the reason people is alone, avoids having kids or dealing with other people's stuff that could disrupt their overly comfortable western way of life.

Even people that's not that selfish is operating in that environment.

When I think of times in which I've made friends, it usually has to do with being in a group of similar-ish peers for an extended period of time, ideally with a shared goal. School is the obvious example, but work can be too if your coworkers are similar enough.

I've often wanted something of a service that produces something similar: creating groups of people that commit to spending time together on some task or activity. E.g. people who are into sports commit to meet up N times to go watch their local team, or people who love animals can volunteer at an animal shelter weekly for a couple of months.

The 'tech' part of this probably comes from: 1) matching people well to groups, like considering age, personality, politics, location, interests, etc to try to create a good fit. and 2) making it much easier for them to participate in activities, like by automatically booking tickets for events, etc.

Obviously there would be challenges. How do you prevent people from flaking or bailing? How do you handle groups where one person is clearly a bad apple?

Social media and on demand media hijack the emotional triggers that would usually be resolved by talking to people. Some examples:

* In line at the BMV, bored and feeling lonely. Should resolve loneliness by talking to strangers in line... mostly chit-chat, but sometimes you make a friend! Social media turns this into doom scrolling.

* Sitting in the living room by yourself, feeling a little lonely. Should result in calling up a friend or relative, or heading to get a coffee/beer where you can interact with people. On demand media turns this into low risk watching shows (yes, old school TV was an option, but on demand, there's always something on that is interesting).

So the trick is to make yourself ask if you should give someone a call or go somewhere public when you are pulling out the phone with intent to scroll or watch a show. When you find something you are interested in because you are watching lots of videos about it, or replying on forums, force yourself to engage in the real world. If you are arguing politics, find a group advocating your position and get involved (I've got to meet three majority leaders and two Presidents, plus a bunch of congresspeople you see on the news all the time as a side effect of getting involved because I was pissed off on the internet about business taxation issues). If you find a hobby, find a local group that does that. Learning to play the guitar from YouTube was fun, but jamming with other musicians? Off the charts fun and far more educational that just playing along with videos.

Finally, and this is the big one, try to never eat meals alone. Never say no to going to lunch with coworkers. Join stuff that meets for breakfast. Dinners are hard, but it's surprising what happens when you invite a couple people over for dinner and a beer once in a while.

Make Single Room Occupancy (SRO) housing legal again.

Having barely room for little more than a bed forces you to get out during the day. Stuff happens when your default for where to spend your time is not at "home". SRO halls also usually had more room for common spaces to meet and socialize with other people in a similar position in life, and of course, SRO is a very cheap housing option.

We need weekly activity plans to introduce multi-racial, multi-age, multi-political people to each other in palaces for the people venues.

Read the book 'Palaces for the People'... Invest Billions in social infrastructure... and run the country like it was a retirement community. Everyone is welcome, everyone has value and we need to learn (with practice) how to love each other again.

I'm wondering if there are any research groups led by sociologist that explore this topic which may be helped by a group of volunteer ?

I've always wondered why applications like Tinder etc... have not been completely destroyed by open-source already ?

We also forget that communities are essentially what allowed this escape in the first place ; I remember going to psytrance festivals but there are so many more escapes : theater, cinema groups, even in tech you have meetings for rust, programming languages and what not

There is definitely some kind of knowledge around being active in life ; and on that point I do not think that working count as active (I'm myself a workaholic so i'm definitely not the best example here)

There are other drivers for isolation than not knowing how to integrate though - it's not always easy to find people who share those common interest or mindset.

It's a very polarized time period which only exaggerate this - the best way to fight it off is to literally do something meaningless with people (eg : play)

I've had a great time at board game meetups. I highly recommend finding a group of people who play modern board games once a week. There should be at least one in most towns or cities. It can take a while to find the right group, but once you do, you can make some lifelong friends just by turning up every week. I've had some great experiences and a few not as great ones around the world and at various times. My favorites ones always involve food and alcohol in a nice bar or pub, usually starting with some casual or social deduction games. I now have a pretty huge collection of board games. I just moved to a new town though and it's pretty small so I need to be a bit more proactive. Haven't played a lot recently.

Confession... I don't actually like board games all that much, and I don't really care if I win. Some of the games are really cool but I just love hanging out and having fun with a group of people.

In my opinion, it's entirely possible to build a social network or social media that doesn't incentivize rage but one that leads to actual friendships. I don't think internet itself is the issue, I think that the existing options just maximize outrage/drama and other negative addictive qualities rather than the slow-burn good things.

I'm also in this group, so I have a few theories as to what causes it and how to fix it.

For one thing, I was severely traumatized as a kid, which delayed a lot of my social skills. I'm catching up but not all the way there yet. When my social battery is full, I can do pretty well, but if I'm even a little down, it's basically impossible to act normally.

I also had it hammered into me as a kid that nobody wants me around, nobody could ever love me, I'm a failure, a burden, a creep, a weirdo, and nothing but a bothersome nuisance that nobody would ever want to spend 30 seconds alone with. I'm trying to reject these thoughts, but it's difficult when you have nobody to talk to. It's like pulling yourself up by your bootstraps. I wonder how many people have the same issue. I've made a few friends in person, but I rarely get to see them.

Well I've started doing public surveys in my nearby big city, and documenting the results. I just hold out a posterboard that says "how alone do you feel"[1] or "have you ever been in love" etc, and hold out a marker, and people come up and take the survey. At first I did this out of sheer loneliness and boredom. But I have done it for enough months that some people have come up to me and told me that I've helped them, or that they look forward to my signs.

I'm trying to reach those people who feel the way I feel have no way of connecting with anyone, or at least feel that they don't. Do you have any new ideas of how to achieve this?

[1] https://chicagosignguy.com/blog/how-alone-do-you-feel.html

The question is about systemic solutions:

- Invest in 3rd places:

· Zoning that allows small businesses and cafés to be near where people live.

· Invest heavily in public libraries.

· Invest in public parks and spaces. For places where it rains a lot, maybe that should include roofed structures.

· Increase and promote funding for social organisations. Give money to orgs for every member.

- Create more free time:

· Make legislation that accommodates and promotes work weeks shorter than 37 hours.

· Ensure decent and reliable support for people who cannot (find) work, so their time is freed up to support their community.

- In disaster readiness checklists, include a point about knowing the names and special needs of your neighbours.

- Invest in mental health services. Both serious stuff and some light-weight sit-and-talk-groups.

- Set up laws that promote public transportation and carpooling.

- Anti-trust social media companies. Promote competitive compatibility between social media platforms. This is to let consumers choose the services that give them the best outcomes.

I don't think there's a single fix, but small design changes matter: more third places that don't revolve around consumption, work schedules that allow for regular community life, activities where showing up quietly is acceptable. Loneliness isn't just about lack of friends, it's about lack of belonging

This is a minor thing, but as an introvert, I really try and push myself to model social behaviour to my kids. Saying good morning to people in the street, chatting to other dog owners, being nice to waiters, travelling by bus, there are lots of tiny opportunities every day to show that world is full of lovely people who aren’t scary at all.

I think this is quite an interesting question. Especially for the developer audience. If you're an engineer, then you likely have similar tendencies to a lot of other engineers. You want to spend time alone, but you also feel the need to combat this loneliness, isolation and depression that it leads to. You want to connect, but struggle to do so. The internet, software, reddit and other places became a safe haven, but then they perpetuated what was hindering you in the first place. I say these things because I'm that person. I lost decades to this sort of escapism that comes from an online world. Unfortunately the answers rarely work for us at the time we're going through this. It's rare for someone to just break out of the cycle. Something has to change, but it's a change that comes from deep within yourself.

Sometimes you have to reflect on the why. Why am I here, why am I in this situation. And often it's that deeper internal reflection that starts to motivate something, change something. Listen, I lost decades. And I still struggle. But no one else can solve this for you.

In terms of the loneliness epidemic itself. You have to split it into many separate categories. Isolation comes in many forms. For the online generation, who grew up with the internet, we are specific category. But I'll tell you, the path to fixing it has more to do with understanding why we are here than filling the time with arbitrary activities or socialising. Yes we need human connnection and yes we should explore, learn and grow. But fundamentally the first question we should be asking, why am I here, what is my purpose, now what should I do with that.

In my case, I did find talking to someone helped, but only after coming to the realisation that I needed to talk to someone and then proactively seeking it out. As much as we want to solve the problem for many people, they have to walk a path before they can see the truth. We can offer alternatives, but people will only find what they're looking for when they're ready.

I've been working on something called Open Enough Design (OED). The core idea: most rooms force a binary choice between total isolation (the bunker) and overwhelming exposure (the stage). Neither works. What works is a dial you can adjust.

In my book "Leave the Door Open" I suggest simple, high leverage moves anyone can do. Three examples of practical moves that cost nothing:

-Turn your chair to face the door instead of a wall. Your nervous system relaxes when it can see who's coming.

- If you live alone, open your door or window four inches for an hour. The sounds of life beyond your walls remind your body you're not alone on the planet.

- Put out a second chair. Even if no one visits. It shifts your internal posture from "no one is coming" to "I'm expecting life to enter."

Small changes, I know. But the room shapes you as much as you shape it. It's a virtuous cycle.

I write about this at oedmethod.substack.com if you want to go deeper.

1. Pass a law letting people WFH where its reasonably possible. I WFH in a walkable city and me and my friends try new restaurants every week, always around noon. I've met lots of new people, and joined new groups that I wouldn't have found out about if I was stuck at my desk. Give people more freedom of movement.

Rely on someone that is social or be that person to organize things.

I’m ultra depressed so I have just been relying on others.

You know the people that are the most lonely? Old widows/widowers that spend too much time in their houses.

Luckily I’m an introvert. But, even if you are, you should get out and do something.

Your health and mental wellness depend on socializing IRL.

This is a difficult problem to want to solve. Some of it has to do with low income or joblessness. So this is the first focus I would set - make income easier to come by, more fair, more distributed. This in itself will not fix the solo state of people but it would alleviate some worries. Then we have to tackle the social problem. This is really difficult to want to solve. Activity helps, so the state should be able to encourage more activity overall. For instance, in my own youth I was physically more active, so you meet a lot of people through sports - that alone works fairly well. You can probably think of many more cohesive social structures and what not. I think it is a difficult to want to solve problem though. Not everyone uses social media by the way but is still isolated; Japan even gave some odd name to this.

Build or join a local community!

I’ve been working with https://fractal.boston/ and adjacent communities for the last year and my loneliness has been cured. I now have the opposite problem where I don’t get enough time to myself!

When I go to tech meetups, I often see a great deal of people sitting alone using their phones, because interacting with people you don't know is scary.

Try to resist! Yeah it's scary but most tech-heads are as nerdy/goofy as you and are interested in all the details of whatever you hacking on.

Start with you: 1. Daily sunshine 2. Nutritious diet 3. Adequate, quality sleep 4. Exercise

You'll find virtually every dimension of your life will improve if you're on top of these four things. It will make you more ambitious in pursuing social engagement. And that will make socialization much easier.

Decommodify relationships

Decapitalize third spaces.

Reduce the difficulty of making walkable cities - building zoning reform, mass transit.

Housing in my city has been expensive for years, and the knock-on effect is that most people I know live so far apart we barely see each other anymore.

When you stack a two hour trip each way on top of the rising cost of doing anything at all, on top of already crushing housing and living costs, you end up with a perfect storm where staying home becomes the default. Not because people don’t want to socialise, but because the effort and expense make it impractical.

This has been a prolem where I live for years and I've actively watched it become worse over time as people have been forced to move further and further apart, and further and further away from the active areas of the city in order to be able to afford to keep a roof over their head.

Since this is a tech forum, the best solutions I've seen to this problem seem to be arising on instagram due to its good location based advertising (it was originally meetup.com but they sacrificed their lead during grandstand on covid). Lots of run clubs, events, dances, and things to do get recommended in my feed all the time, and once you get into a scene people are usually recommending more things to do. There are sometimes community based apps as well which recommend local things to do. Ultimately though you need to go outside and meet people, you can't solve it by sitting in your house alone talking to internet people.