alt Hacker NewsIPv6 is not insecure because it lacks a NAT
Comments
It's scary how much of this thread of supposed hackers comes from people who clearly don't understand the difference between a NAT and a firewall.
NAT is not for security, it does not provide security. It is often bundled with a firewall. The firewall provides security. Firewall=\=NAT
Of course it's not insecure because of NAT.
NAT (in all its forms) is just a very convenient technology for many people and niche situations.
And adoption of IPv6 will be hindered as long as NAT is not a first class citizen.
And of course, mostly NAT should not be used as "firewall replacement". But what many firewall proponents forget here:
NON-IT People at home cannot run and manage a firewall (and proxies). For them, NAT is a convenient and mostly okayish replacements.
Another niche would be IP Packet Handling of VMs.
NAT causes security issues too. Reflection attacks are much harder to stop if the endpoint and its network address are decoupled.
You can provoke loops and tangles of many sorts, some at the same protocol level and others going up and down.
My memory is fading but I vaguely recall a time when all of AOL shared something like a dozen egress addresses for certain traffic -- might have been proxies as opposed to NAT/"PAT" as we know it today. Iow, you couldn't block one without blocking 1/12 of AOL users.
Stronger memories of a time when your IP address (some were nat, some were not, varied by ISP) depended on which modem bank you dialed into, which was strongly influenced by what phone number you dialed. Which diluted the identity value of a given IP for a computer or user.
Fun fact I have actually had an sbc get hacked because I didn’t change the default password. I thought it would be reasonably safe for a few days because I knew the VLAN it was on had NAT and the associated firewall rules that deny inbound packets without outbound. But it turned out ipv6 was also enabled on that VLAN with no firewall. Left a bad taste in my mouth over a decade later even if it was a misconfigured firewall rather than an inherent issue with ipv6.
NAT is just one slice of IPv4. Granted your private IP is not routable (with CGNAT now your gateway is also no longer routable), but think of other features of IPv6 that are congruent:
SLAAC basically means your routable IPv6 address changes so many times in a day (and there are multiple of those at any given instant) that even if the attackers know your prefix, its going to be very difficult to do anything meaningful. the address space is too big.
And we are assuming here that there is no firewall.
Note : macOS firewall on a new install is disabled iirc.
This is going to depend on the router and on IP distribution.
My ISP does not give me an IPv6 address, only a single IPv6 which all my network devices have to NAT through.
NAT is not intended to be a security feature, for sure, but it creates security as a side effect. If I start up a web server on one of my devices, I know that it is unreachable from the Internet unless I go out of my way to set a port forward on my router.
But...if my ISP decides to start handing out IPv6, that can change. If each of my devices gets an Internet routable IPv6 address, at that point, that security-as-a-side-effect is not guaranteed unless my router has a default-deny firewall. I would hope that any routers would ship with that.
But if my ISP still gives me only a single IPv6 address and I'm still needing to use NAT, then I'm guaranteed to still effectively have a "default deny" inbound firewall policy.
This is the first thing that as a Network Engineer I was taught - and every formal security class I've taken (typically from Cisco - they have awesome course) - repeats the same thing.
I believe the common knowledge is somewhat more nuanced than people would have you believe
I present to you two separate high-value targets whose IP address has leaked:
IPv4 Target: 192.168.0.1
IPv6 Target: 2001:1868:209:FFFD:0013:50FF:FE12:3456
Target #2 gives aways 90% of the game at attacking it (we even leak some device specific information, so you know precisely where it's weak points are)
Also - while IPv6 lacks NAT, it certainly has a very effective Prefix-translation mechanism which is the best of both worlds:
Here is a real world target:
FDC2:1045:3216:0001:0013:50FF:FE12:3456
No one's complaining that IPV6 is insecure. It may as well be very secure, but no one bothers to understand it if they're not paid to do that.
Of course you can have default drop in your IPV6 firewall, but it's far easier to keep in your head that internal NATed IPs aren't accessible and "real" IPs are.
I find the discussion about whether or not NAT is a security feature or not interesting. To my mind NAT was intended to make ipv4 last longer in a clever way as address space dried up. A happy accident of this solution is a basic security feature.
Ipv6 doesn't (currently, will it ever?) have the same address space problem so each device anywhere could be globally routable. But we know that's not really a good thing security-wise. But why couldn't we implement NAT for it as a security mechanism, instead of an address space solution?
Admittedly I'm not expert so I might be talking shit.
Invoking NAT "security" as a reason against IPv6 is a surefire indicator the person invoking it has absolutely no idea what they're talking about and should not be allowed within typing distance of any network infrastructure
This has been gospel among snooty network engineers for decades, but NAT was initially introduced to the wider market as a security feature, and it is absolutely a material factor in securing networks. The network engineers are wrong about this.
(IPv6 is still good for lots of other reasons, and NAT isn't good security; just material.)
> The consequence of this is that when receiving inbound traffic, the router needs needs to be configured with where to send the traffic on the local network. As a result, it will drop any traffic that doesn’t appear in the “port forwarding” table for the NAT.
As I keep trying to explain each time this comes up: no, it doesn't and it won't.
When your router receives incoming traffic that isn't matched by a NAT state table entry or static port forward, it doesn't drop it. Instead, it processes that traffic in _exactly_ the same way it would have done if there was no NAT going on: it reads the dst IP header and (in the absence of a firewall) routes the packet to whatever IP is written there. Routers don't drop packets by default, so neither will routers that also do NAT.
Of course, this just strengthens your point that NAT isn't security.
I think two things can be true here: the article's assertion that "IPv6 is not insecure because it lacks NAT" is correct, and other peoples' assertions that NAT provides an extra layer of security are also correct.
A correctly configured IPv6 firewall provides equivalent protection to a correctly configured IPv4 firewall and NAT. Either way, connections that do not originate from within the local network are going to be rejected.
But if the firewall is misconfigured, then NAT will make it more difficult for an attacker on the internet to discover and exploit vulnerabilities on the local network.
"Defense in depth" is a valid security principle. But NAT also creates real-world problems that IPv6 solves. As with all things, there are tradeoffs, and whether or not you should enable IPv6 on your local network depends on your use case.
The tension here is the difference between theory and reality. In reality, IPv4 NAT is the only thing protecting most users in their homes. If you force IPv6 on this same population, you have to give them an equivalent posture by default.
This is kind of like writing an argument that motorcycles are not unsafe because they lack 4 wheels. This is true, but if you put my grandmother on one and ask her to drive across town, she would not survive it.
Not wishing to undermine the central point, NAT for v6 is a thing. The point of the article is that it's not "NAT by default" the way home IPv4 is because so few places worldwide get more than a single IP per customer: The NAT is not there in v4 for security, it's to provide for multiple devices inside the home. Or, in the case of Carrier-Grade NAT, to manage multiple customers, behind a small pool of v4.
NAT doesn't exist to be secure. If it is, (and that is debatable because NAT busting is a thing) then, it's a side-effect.
NAT for v6 is not common. If you use ULA, you'd possibly use NAT for v6 in some circumstances.
So with IPv4 with NAT you definitely have this security. According to this article with IPv6 you MIGHT have that security -we don't know. That's not secure.
NAT is not inherently a security feature, however where NAT happens is somewhat important.
A local router that I can control deals with how to map from my public IP to my private IPs.
This is not security but is obfuscation of the traffic.
Obfuscation becomes almost impossible in the IPV6 context where NAT isn't necessary, it becomes optional, and given the likely trajectory that option will be exercised by sophisticated enterprise customers only.
I disagree with this strongly. The intended use case of NAT or the existence of inbound connections being blocked by routers is irrelevant.
For NAT, of course it isn't meant for security, but it has a side-effect of creating a network boundary, and that has positive security implications.
If your router doesn't have a firewall blocking any connections, NAT still has security implications as it is deployed typically on consumer networks, which is a one-way port-address-translation for outbound traffic.
The important bit here is not NAT or firewalls, but layer 3 network segments!!!
An RFC1918 private addrerss space is not internet routable. Furthermore, routers shouldn't "default route" traffic from arbitrary connected networks by default. But "should" aside, the typical default consumer router behavior is that they don't NAT translate inbound traffic, they can't!
If a random internet IP wanted to connect to port 80 on a device at 192.168.1.200 in your home network, it doesn't know how to tell your router what IP to translate it's request to the router's public IP to. That is the essential positive security implication. In commercial grade routers, the same applies except even if the external IP knew to direct the router to the right internal IP, or if the route knew to direct the traffic to the right external IP for outbound connections, unless you configure a default route, or a more explicit route, it won't forward such traffic.
With IPv6, end devices in your network get a globally routed address, someone can try to connect to that same internal device as my earlier example and succeed with the same exact default behavior in place.
IPv6 is thus, by relative metrics, insecure by default. It does not mean it cannot be secured, but it is less secure than IPv4 in typical deployments where extra care isn't taken to secure it properly. If your answer to this is "well that's just because people who deploy networks are dumb" then save your self the effort or arguing that, it is irrelevant. That is how networks are deployed in the real world, period. People make mistakes in the real world. People don't know best practices in the real world. So out of the box, things need to consider real world hazards, and IPv6 does not do that.
You can support the adaption of IPv6 nonetheless and I would have no disagreement there.
IPv6 without NAT is not insecure; I can and do have a stateful firewall that denies unwanted inbound connections. But it does not matter if my auditors think otherwise and the whole Internet tells me that arguing with them will end my career.
nitpick on the title, the way it's worded makes it sound like "IPv6 is not insecure because it lacks a NAT, (but it's insecure because of other reasons)".
would be better if it was "Lacking a NAT doesn't make IPv6 insecure".
Maybe it’s because I don’t consider myself a super technical person, but I find it so hard to parse the title of this blog post. When I first read it, I thought it was saying something like, “The protocol is not insecure, and the reason is that it lacks a NAT”. However, after reading the blog post, it seems like it is intending a different meaning. The meaning I think is, “the protocol is not insecure just because it lacks NAT”.
If IPv6 is behind firewall, apps can't use it for P2P connections, so the major point of IPv6 network becomes moot.
And IPv4 NAT is actually possible to penetrate sometimes. So for some networks, IPv4 provides better P2P connectivity, than IPv6.
NAT is a trivial feature on top of a connection tracking firewall. It also provides a large number of benefits - the ability to route traffic via different routes with PBR, without having BGP upstream, to keep routing decisions in the router rather than on each device, to not have to renumber internal IP addessing when the ISP changes, to have consistent view of what happens at a network level
I have yet to see a "NAT is not security" rebuttal that does not make either one or both of these points:
- NAT is not a security feature because it wasn't designed as one (this post), and/or
- NAT is not a security feature because it does not, without a firewall, protect against an attacker on the WAN subnet, or another difficult-to-exploit scenario.
And yet making LAN devices unroutable from the Internet does on its own makes exploitation much more difficult. It's admittedly not a perfect measure, but it's one that IPv6 deployments with routable addresses for LAN devices lack. I would wager this does make a difference in the proliferation of botnets, especially given the lackluster standards of consumer network equipment security.
Security is not a binary. NAT is (slightly?) more secure.
Agreed with the main message.
... but
An incoming message to an IPv4 NAT router will not be forwarded to a LAN device unless it matches a known flow (typically continuation of a conversation, typically initiated by the LAN device, which is expected), or the user set up a DMZ forward to a particular destination. There is actually no reasonable way for non-DMZ LAN devices to be exposed to the noise.
For non-NAT IPv6, sure a firewall might be on by default, but it can be turned off - and therein lies the potential exposure to every LAN device to directed traffic.
In other words, the risky zone for IPv4 NAT tends to be setting up a DMZ exposing 1 device, while the risky zone for IPv6 non-firewalled tends to be exposing all of the devices behind the router.
I wrote that comment, and you can write to yourself how many times you want that NAT is not a firewall.
The truth of the matter is that NAT absolutely _is_ a firewall in _practice_. Not in theory "because it doesn't drop packets" or "because it was not meant to be a security feature". But in the actual real-world practice.
It effectively protects most networks from most attackers without ANY additional configuration, making it inherently foolproof.
Here, I put a private key for a wallet with 0.01 bitcoin at this address: http://192.168.80.26/ Go on and take it. It's not protected by anything else I disabled everything but NAT. Heck, here's my real IPv4 even: 172.56.107.111
Is this a _good_ reason to not do IPv6? No. But it absolutely _is_ a reason and needs to be acknowledged.
Discussions about NAT very often forget that it works by messing up with the transport layer. The fuzz is about hiding IP address and exposing services, but the worst thing about NAT is that technically it should not count as a connection to "the Internet". It exploits TCP/UDP properties to fake endpoints into thinking they have a proper connection.
To visualize this, imagine we somehow are out of available email addresses. Email providers have an idea, they would make one inbox for multiple people and have an SMTP proxy that will read the message content, look at "Dear ..." heading and proxy content as new message to "internal" network. All clients would see the same internal addresses from private space (picture 192.168.1.1), but upon sending the provider proxy replaces it adding "King regards, <shared address>". What if someone format the text differently? What if they use new format unknown to the proxy? It just won't work: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protocol_ossification Someone would then argue it is good as it hides your real address from spam and theft, but we can clearly see the massive disadvantages in this design.
I actually wanted to write this article myself but every time I started writing it up I thought "fuck, this is too obvious, I'm being condescending". But then I read these comments and I'm sad again.
Makes sense. But I’d argue NAT is still more secure because it physically breaks the connection between your internal host and the outside world. Without an existing routing table there’s no destination to route the packet to.
I basically disable all ipv6 on my routers & firewalls completely. Waiting for the day we can disable ipv4 completely instead and use only ipv6 without NAT. But then each device will need its own firewall. NAT basically forces you to use some kind of firewall, which applies to all devices behind the NAT. But if we go all-in on IPv6, the firewall-by-default becomes much harder to implement in practice. Then we will need some kind of distributed/federated firewall config to constantly keep devices usable but safe, but then that will introduce a new set attack vectors. So we are kinda screwed for now. We need that new internet, maybe one where you unify static ipv6, dhcp6, dns, firewalls, nat and a few other friends into a single thing. Or perhaps we can use ipv6 only to get a static ip address for each home/building, which then has a small vlan/vpn to group all your devices together using ipv4 internally for ease of use.. which is close to what we currently have with cgnat+ipv4+wireguard+vlans. All round we have a big mess but it works well, if you know what you are doing that is. This is all to say we can even keep net-neutrality for a while longer, we are okay for now but the american/uk/china/india govs plus entities like cloudflare will actually destroy net-neutrality in the long run. Much like email delivery has already been ruined & captured. Sorry for the rant.
For those of you with this handy technology, the mobile phone, in the United States: you have an IPv6 address without NAT. Some of you even exist on a network using 464XLAT to tunnel IPv4 in IPV6, because it's a pure IPV6 network (T-Mobile). These mobile phone providers do not let the gazillion consumer smartphones act as servers for obvious reasons.
This is all to underscore the author's point: NAT may necessitate stateful tracking, but firewalls without translation has been deployed at massive scale for one of the most numerous types of device in existence.