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D-Machineyesterday at 9:39 PM1 replyview on HN

> It has little to do with the reality of that language or the correctness of your model of it, but rather with the need to train realtime circuits to do some work.

To the contrary, this is purely speculative and almost certainly wrong, riding a bike is co-ordinating the realtime circuits in the right way, and language and a linguistic model fundamentally cannot get you there.

There are plenty of other domains like this, where semantic reasoning (e.g. unquantified syllogistic reasoning) just doesn't get you anywhere useful. I gave an example from cooking later in this thread.

You are falling IMO into exactly the trap of the linguistic reductionist, thinking that language is the be-all and end-all of cognition. Talk to e.g. actual mathematicians, and they will generally tell you they may broadly recruit visualization, imagined tactile and proprioceptive senses, and hard-to-vocalize "intuition". One has to claim this is all epiphenomenal, or that e.g. all unconscious thought is secretly using language, to think that all modeling is fundamentally linguistic (or more broadly, token manipulation). This is not a particularly credible or plausible claim given the ubiquity of cognition across animals or from direct human experiences, so the linguistic boundedness of LLMs is very important and relevant.


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throw310822yesterday at 9:50 PM

Funny, because riding a bicycle or speaking a language is exactly something people don't have a world model of. Ask someone to explain how riding a bicycle works, or an uneducated native speaker to explain the grammar of their language. They have no clue. "Making the right movement at the right time within a narrow boundary of conditions" is a world model, or is it just predicting the next move?

> You are falling IMO into exactly the trap of the linguistic reductionist, thinking that language is the be-all and end-all of cognition.

I'm not saying that at all. I am saying that any (sufficiently long, varied) coherent speech needs a world model, so if something produces coherent speech, there must be a world model behind. We can agree that the model is lacking as much as the language productions are incoherent: which is very little, these days.

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