> for not embracing religion of OOP and FactoryFactory

Not the case today. Of course, crappy code (or questionable patterns) can be found in all languages, and java community had made some innovations in the area early on, but today we have a different picture.

FactoryFactory has gone mostly extinct, the most likely place to see it is “dailywtf.com”.

We now know that we prefer composition over inheritance, we have stream api - language and community evolved, old patterns are not neccessary anymore to solve same/similar problems.

Sample of one - junit (testing lib) source code, from quick glance it seems more procedural than dogmatic OOP: https://github.com/junit-team/junit-framework/blob/main/juni...

It's getting better, it doesn't all have to be Spring Boot and JBoss.

There is quarkus, helidon and micronaut for slimmer more modern backend frameworks. jbang for scripting (think uvx, bunx), Tambo UI (https://tamboui.dev/) for terminal UIs, and more.

Along with all the new Java features that help you write much simpler code - eg. virtual threads, structured concurrency, stream gatherers, and performance / resource improvements.

It's not all there yet, but I think the next few years things will come together nicely (however a better build system is sorely needed - one of the things that Go / Rust did right).

After ~13 years of working with C#, I moved to Kotlin. It's such a beautiful language. When I have to read docs for a Java lib I realize why I like Kotlin.

I want to say culture around Java doesn't have to change, new culture is growing around succinctness (if not simplicity) of Kotlin, and it gets most of the benefits of Java ecosystem.

I wonder if at we are standing looking at the smoking field of programming languages created over the last 50 years and gazing at the final survivors, of which Java is definitely one.

Why would anyone create a new language now? The existing ones are "good enough", and without a body of examples for LLMs to train on, a new language has little chance getting traction.

I learned IBM /360 assembler when I started in computers a long time ago. I haven't seen a line of assembler in many decades, but I'm sure it's a viable language still if you need it.

Java has won (alongside many other winners of course), now the AI drawbridge is being raised to stop new entrants and my pick is that Java will still be here in 50 years time, it's just no humans will be creating it.

And Java has some advantages that are hard to beat. It performs better than Go and builds just as fast (at least when not using some popular build tools) while offering unmatched deep, low-overhead observability.

People might think they may enjoy another language more, but the portion of people who eventually come to regret choosing Java is probably lower than that of any other language.

That and also the JVM is a marvel of engineering with millions of hours that were poured in by smart people over the last 30 years.

It can be as fast a C, supports a multitude of languages, introspection, surveillance etc.

What do you mean by "better than Go for industry purposes"?

I don't understand what "industry purposes" means and in what aspects Java is better than Go in your opinion (I can think of some myself, but I'm interested in your perspective).

As a Go developer, this is right on the mark. I’ve been hearing good things about Java lately, so I decided to check out the language for the first time since 2012 or something. And I was impressed!

The language maintainers have added so many great features while maintaining backwards compatibility. And slowly but surely improved the JVM and garbage collection. So after toying around for a bit, I decided to write some personal projects in Java.

After a week, I gave up and returned to Go. The build tooling is still an over engineered mess. Third party library APIs are still horrible. I will never invest even 5 minutes in learning that horrible Spring framework when stuff like Django, Rails, or the Go ecosystem exist.

The community, and thus the online forums and open source libraries, still approach engineering and aesthetics in a way that is completely foreign and off putting to me.

Hey even Go has got effective `FactoryFactory` stuff in a lot of open source projects. They just name it differently.

Maybe this is just a question of taste but I never could get along with Javas (or Kotlin's) tooling.

Primarily working in Vim/Helix works for most languages from Nix to Typescript or Rust and C, but Java just never worked quite right. It also generally felt like it had a worse story around tooling from a DX perspective, something like Golang or even npm feels a lot lighter than the molasses of JDK management and gradle et al.

"a solid foundation for the future" is faint praise for a language that has been around for over thirty years.

> It has become a best of breed language

To me it lags significantly behind .net (runtime) and C#/F# (language). I don't see Java catching-up.

Enterprise space architecture is not picky, all programming languages get a place when they manage to hit big at corporate life.

It can be Yourdon with C and Pascal, Booch with Smalltalk and C++, Patterns with Smalltalk and C++, UML with Ada, C++, Smalltalk and Java, Rational RUP , Java and .NET application servers, Kubernetes with WebAssembly microservices,....

Ever looked into Typescript with effects, pretending to be Haskell?

I write TypeScript daily and honestly it is not about being scared of Java. The ecosystem just makes more sense if you are already building for the web. You write your frontend in JS/TS, your backend in the same language, your build tools understand it natively, and you share types between client and server. That is a hard thing to replicate in Java even if the language itself is technically better in some areas. The barrier is not cultural fear, it is practical convenience.

Java isn't even true OO. The only truly OO programming languages that I know of are SmallTalk, Obj-C, and Ruby

The problem is that many jobs with Java (that I've found) lean so heavily towards OOP that it's part of the job description. I just don't enjoy OOP and find that there's almost always a simpler approach, and to have it prescribed as part of the engineering culture will always steer me away.

> hell its better than Go for industry purposes

Yet if you ask people in the bay area, especially the those who are under 35, they would tell you that "Use Java? Over my deadbody". It's just amazing that people always chase shiny new things.

Front page, 82 comments, comment 2 hours ago…why is this the top comment? “People who write Typescript could just be writing Java except they’re scared of being outcasts for not using design patterns” is bait, not a serious technical opinion.

Oh. That’s why it’s the top comment.

> hell its better than Go for industry purposes. [...] the drawback with Java will always be the CULTURE

The industry purpose for Go is that all codebases look more or less the same, so workers can jump into any project they've never seen before and instantly feel like they wrote it themselves. Google talked about that a lot around the time Go was released. It is why they created it instead of just adopting Haskell or something.

Some of that simply comes down to the language not allowing much creativity, but without the culture developers would still find a way to mess with outcomes. You can still write crazy Go code if you want to. The culture is the piece that matters. If Java doesn't have the culture, how does it fit in industry?

The fact that you mention Go explicitly hints a real issues with Java.

With LLMs as they currently stand, and with the reasonably confident hope they will get better why even have anymore languages. Shouldn’t we just have everything coded in the most performant language which would be Assembly or C?

I am captivated by your thought process.

[dead]

I didn't use Java since 7, but from people that do - nowadays you basically don't code Java, you code Spring Boot. And that has all the bad things you think when people say "Java".

I don't know if it's true though.

Once i heard a manager explain "we must get rid of anything Oracle, including Java, because of license reasons". I see this attitude everywhere since.

JavaScript people are too afraid to use Java, that is why something like TypeScript exists.

And for personal projects, C# has become a better and more fun "just works" platform.