alt Hacker NewsI also dont think you can cleanly separate HTML and style. Technically you can separate them but doing so in practice just handicaps your design and ability to express things in HTML and CSS (Zen Garden prohibiting css 3+ in most cases).
People have this idea that they should be decoupled. You can do that if you really contort them. Naturally, they are coupled.
The structure of HTML puts constraints on the style. You have to know about the style when writing HTML, even in this Zen Garden project. You can't escape the style and HTML understanding each other. If you have a compelling reason to make a broad range of styles swappable then OK - but you are constraining the design space considerably and there is usually no reason for this complexity and reduction in expressiveness.
The document and the style depend on eachother. You see this with localization. You might need to change spacing or padding or breakpoints to accomodate different languages (text being different length in different languages).
This is why all UI paradigms tightly couple style and structure. QT, GTK, SwiftUI, Flutter, etc. Its the same with CSS/HTML except for people who delude themselves into thinking these were supposed to be loosely coupled.
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The dream was that you could separate content from presentation and content could be adapted and reinterpreted by anyone using whatever tools they choose: User Agents that actually respected the users' vision, not the publishers'.
Couple them how you want, HTML+CSS+JS is the system we've got, and it has to render well on mobile, tablet, and desktop. "deluded" and "supposed to be" are just word barriers that get in the way of doing shit that works.
> The document and the style depend on eachother.
I’d previously understood the relationship to be that the document could remain unchanged, whilst the style (including visual structure/layout) changed. The simplest canonical example is that you can change the font, and all the words and meaning remain unchanged.
> You see this with localization. You might need to change spacing or padding or breakpoints to accomodate different languages (text being different length in different languages).
This is a really intereting case. Strictly I’d say it was a different document, if the language has changed. Really good translations change idiom, which can change meaning, and words, at the level of ohraes, although the intent would be preserved.
But I’m nit-picking, being contrarian, or exploring the edges of your comment.
Today, many web documents are app GUIs. Each field is essentially the same “thing” regardless the languge of its label. And in that sense, these are the same document, and your point holds.
I still think that if you can keep the markup as minimal as possible (reduce the div nesting to just what’s require to mark up logical sections of the content), then you could make a good stab at Zen-gardening your design. It’s very hard to do, however.