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gwdlast Sunday at 3:54 PM12 repliesview on HN

> I remember that there is truly no correct way to say something

Weirdly, that's not what this says. It specifically says you can't say this:

> * John will both try and kill mosquitos.

or

> * I tried and finished the assignment

or

> * Try always and tell the truth

What I'd say instead is: If native speakers say something, then it's grammatically correct. What you were taught is the "prescribed grammar" or "prestige grammar".

Also, grammar is voted on by speakers of a language. I'm generally against making fun of people for deviating from the prestige grammar; but I will "vote against" using the word "literally" to mean "figuratively" as long as I can.


Replies

umanwizardlast Sunday at 4:59 PM

Nobody has ever used “literally” to mean “figuratively”. That’s a common misconception and/or a strawman from people who want to stick to the original meaning of “literally”.

If that were the meaning, you would be able to say things like “I stubbed my toe and it hurts so bad I’m figuratively dying”, mirroring the colloquial meaning of “literally”. But nobody says this.

The actual new and non-traditional meaning of “literally” is as a generic intensifier, see e.g. https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/literally

Oh, and by the way, the “traditional” meaning isn’t even the first one. According to my OED second edition, “literal” meaning “Of a translation, version, transcript, etc.: Representing the very words of the original; verbally exact.” is only attested since 1599.

The actual original meaning of “literal”: “of or pertaining to letters of the alphabet; of the nature of letters, alphabetical” is attested since 1475.

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phkahlerlast Sunday at 5:15 PM

>> but I will "vote against" using the word "literally" to mean "figuratively" as long as I can.

Can we have also declare war on using "exponentially" in place of "significantly"?

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strkenlast Sunday at 4:28 PM

> If native speakers say something, then it's grammatically correct.

In their dialect, sure. In any given dialect, who knows?

Any speaker of a dialect that isn't West Coast American has likely watched actors who live in Los Angeles try, and fail, to speak their dialect.

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LudwigNagasenalast Sunday at 5:30 PM

> If native speakers say something, then it's grammatically correct.

What if two non-native speakers say something and understand each other?

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cgriswaldlast Sunday at 4:36 PM

Although it is a little odd and I'm not certain I've seen it in writing, I have definitely heard constructions like "John will both try and kill mosquitos." to mean, "John will both attempt to and succeed in kill[ing] mosquitos."

"John will both try and like sushi" makes perfect sense, although there's an implied "to eat" verb separate from the "to like" verb in there that isn't present in the constructions the article is talking about.

Likewise, "I tried and finished the assignment," means "I tried (to do) the assignment and I finished it." Again, maybe not in writing, but with a certain inflection on 'tried' (where in writing maybe you'd put a comma or semi-colon to indicate a pause) this is something people actually say; although they may emphasis it with "I finally tried and actually finished the assignment." (Whereas maybe previously they weren't confident they could even do it and maybe didn't try.)

Included for no real reason: "They tried and failed, all of them?" "Oh, no." She shook her head. "They tried and died."

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leeoniyalast Sunday at 4:01 PM

> but I will "vote against" using the word "literally" to mean "figuratively" as long as I can.

https://imgur.com/QBTlxf7

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bigstrat2003last Monday at 5:02 AM

> What I'd say instead is: If native speakers say something, then it's grammatically correct.

By your own logic, "literally" meaning "figuratively" is grammatically correct. Which just goes to show that your logic is wrong. Something can in fact be grammatically incorrect even when said by native speakers.

bryanrasmussenlast Sunday at 4:36 PM

>Try always and tell the truth

I think the article is incorrect on this though, try always and tell the truth is a perfectly fine albeit slightly anachronistic usage that would mean

Whatever you do you must always try (that is to say not give up), and tell the truth.

One might also assume that you should tell the truth about trying always is the meaning, but at any rate it is not a phrasing that would be out of order a few hundred years ago.

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ecocentriklast Sunday at 5:07 PM

Dr Dre is a professional poet and a very successful one by any standard. His whole stock-in-trade was American urban colloquialisms most of which can be traced back to English rural and working class and predate the colonization of the Americas. The early development of English "prestige grammar" and word usage dates back to the court of William the Conqueror and the reintroduction of romance linguistic influence on Anglo-Saxon English that lead to the development of Middle English by the 13th Century. What you understand as English "prestige grammar" today is a moving target, consistently evolving but still full of contradictions and single-case rules. Many popular European languages today have been modified to exclude these linguistic anomalies, making them more consistent, less error prone and easier to learn. I expect the same thing will be done to the English language over the next century.

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aswansonlast Sunday at 4:57 PM

Irregardless of this, what's your take on irregardless?

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dsr_last Sunday at 6:07 PM

Although it doesn't work for mosquitos, it does work for "bandits":

John will both try and kill bandits.

... meaning that John will serve as judge and executioner, if not jury.

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mjevanslast Sunday at 4:30 PM

In that context, 'literally' as figuratively makes the same sense as inflammable and flammable.

It's just one more errata in a language that's filled with horrible hacks from centuries of iterative development.

My hill to die on would be exactly one way (NOT the funky dictionary way!) of spelling words exactly as they should be pronounced and writing them back similarly.

The hill to die on part of that is they need to start with children, teach them ONLY the correct way of spelling words as use in school and stick to it. While we're at it, FFS, do metric measures conversion the same way. Cold turkey force it, and bleed in dual measures and spelling with a cutover plan that starts to make the new correct way required to be larger text by the time the grade -2 kids graduate. (So about a 14-15 year plan.) That's to give all us adults time to bash into our heads the new spellings for old words too.

Why can't it be dictionary spelling? Offhand, 1) those phonetics aren't used quite like that anywhere else. 2) those phonetics are more strongly based on the other languages in Europe so the structure isn't as expected. I'd sooner force everyone to learn how to write TUNIC's shapes... though there's some coverage issues for that.

Effectively I want different shapes for the chart ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Phonetic_Alphabe... ) that DO NOT MATCH EXISTING ENGLISH LETTERS so that when I look at a 'new spelling' my old pronunciation programmed brain doesn't index the wrong lookup table.

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