A potentially good idea got corrupted by vendors, password managers, browsers, etc trying to assert control. I'm also an engineer and I find the UI around passkeys entirely unclear, but it doesn't have to be that way. It seems like everyone wants to be _the_ password manager for all your passkeys. They don't want to make it easy to understand that is what they are doing though, they just happily offer to "handle it for you".

My non-technical friends are extremely confused by passkeys and if they should use them and how to use them and I honestly don't have very good answers. It is a mess. I don't believe an inherit mess, but one created by the companies and projects trying to take advantage of the new system.

This is much, much simpler than you think it is. Passkeys are just passwords that require a password manager. If you lose your passkey, you'll reset your passkey the same way you reset your password, probably with a "forgot my password" email.

(But you're not going to lose it, because you use a password manager, and the passkey will be stored there and synchronized to all of your other devices.)

The weird part is that password managers provide no way for you to copy and paste your passkeys. To present a passkey, you have to use a password manager. This makes it impossible to copy and paste your passkey to the wrong person (someone trying to trick you).

Major password managers don’t even allow you to export your passkeys to a file that you can read/backup yourself. Instead, the password managers each have their own finicky app-to-app mechanism for transferring passkeys from one password manager to another. (I think all the password managers kinda like that lock in.)

Finally, note that for logging into your password manager itself, you'll always require something outside your password manager to login, probably a password, but possibly a YubiKey; your choice. (It's your one "last password," as they call it.)

https://danfabulich.medium.com/passkeys-are-just-passwords-t...

P.S. It's past time to move off of LastPass. LastPass lost all of your passwords again last month, just like they did in 2022. The most similar service is 1Password. If you like LastPass, you'll like 1Password about the same, but 1Password hasn't had multiple terrible security breaches.

In practice, because site owners know users are going to mess up having their passkeys on all devices, I've not seen any insist that a passkey _must_ be used, and you can always log in with your password (or worst case, email magic links) as a fallback.

However, this negates the primary stated objective of passkeys, removing the possibility of users being phished, so I'm not sure how long that will remain the case everywhere.

I've also encountered sites that have a login with passkey prompt that then turns around and asks for TOTP 2FA or email confirmation anyway, which to me seems to negate the primary customer benefit of passkeys...

This is the main reason I've avoided passkeys. I have these exact questions and there's no a clear explanation given for these. I don't want to lose access to important accounts.

I get your problem, i don't really accept it as valid. Passkeys were always supposed to be fungible. You have one in your iPhone, a different one on your desktop. A third in your significant other's phone. All stored in the hardware tpm equivalent.

You can have 7 passkeys. You can have 14.

The real failure of passkeys (emphasis on the s!) is that people think they must only have one.

Same here, also what if I lose the device?

I can safely write down a password on a piece of paper and keep it somewhere phyisically safe.

Passkeys and 2FA are a usability nightmare if you need to recover, or all the security vanishes if you put usable recovery mechanisms for the passkey or the second factor.

My issue is that they're touted to the consumer as secure, and they're not really doing much more than a complex password.

How do you generate a new key if you need one? Same process as a password reset. Does it prevent session stealers? Not at all.

Its "benefit" is grandma can't read it to an attacker. OK, well can grandma click a link and have a session stealer bork her life instead? Yeah, and attackers know that and just shift methods. Session stealing isn't a sophisticated attack, and so all that's being done is shaving a cost on PW resets in the interest of shareholder value, at the cost of security theater and locking up your keys in a single domain that holds control over our access to everything.

Listening to Yubikey and OnePassword talk about this, they actually say "One Person, One Device". Which really speaks to their failure to understand their users.

I think the intended workflow is you login with your phone and that device is now the authority that allows other devices to issue their own passkeys.

In my opinion it's a bad plan, because it elevates certain devices to privileged status, if you lose your phone you are hosed.

Passkeys should be allowed to be synced between devices and stored on password managers in the cloud. I am making my own password manager for my personal use, but have not delved into passkeys.

If you save it via Passwords app, it'll be iOS / macOS mainly, but you can unlock with any Apple device that supports Passkey / Passwords app (so likely modern + reasonably updated) the easiest. If you want it to work "everywhere" then you CAN use your iOS / MacOS Passkey, it will show you a QR code, some places poorly support this, I believe both devices need bluetooth, and then it will authenticate it.

Linux is the only oddball here, I had issues getting this flow to work.

If the UX for Passkey improves, I will go all-in on it, I'm at the point I'd love to just completely block passwords from accessing my account, unless I explicitly enable it temporarily by logging on via passkey, I wish some sites would let me lock my account to this level, it would be better. Passwords feel like they just wind up all over the web.

Weirdly enough you can store multiple passkeys for a given domain, which can get confusing in some cases if they dont have normal names tied to them.

Edit: Originally I thought Passwords from Apple was iOS / macOS only, but its not! So I have been editing my original message, sorry for the confusion, I had forgotten that I can login on Windows with my Passkeys from Apple's ecosystem.

As another poster noted, you can transfer them out of Apple's ecosystem too!

It makes sense for a work device that is off network/domain, but then it is your primary/only means of interfacing with services. Then you can consolidate under a Windows Hello passkey or something else.

The second you have a second device to log in from they are useless. The second you want or need to share a credential (smart or not) they are more work than a password.

The passkey trend seems lead by platforms that want to make it easier to get or stay logged in, Netflix type companies that want to prevent account sharing, and those that value convenience (if one device) over security.

> Edit: One final consideration, my spouse and I share user/name passwords for some things (notably Pandora and our Amazon Prime account) since they don’t handle things like family logins well; how do both my wife and I use amazon or Pandora with passkeys? Do we each set up passkeys? How do I get her Pass if that’s not an option?

Lets say it is a android phone. Open amazon app. login in the usual user/password + 2FA (like with QRcode or phone). create passkey. done. This passkey would have been now synced to your google account.

Take next spouse phone. Open amazon website or app. try login it will try for passkey but cannot find it. so

- login in the usual user/password + 2FA (like with QRcode or phone). create passkey. done - Now this passkey would have synced to spouse google account.

In future, assuming you have apple or windows laptop. assume you have signed into Google (chrome). Now go to amazon. It will ask - shall I sign in with passkey. Yes, give your macos fingerprint or windows hello or password of that laptop. login Done magically. You dont even need to remember username or password.

Assuming you both have iPhones. You can sync the passkey to icloud account. And for every new iDevice it will be available.

The main bottleneck of passkey would be that all 3rd party sites will have another non-passkey way as backup to login. I have never seen a website that would say - remove all other methods and keep only passkey.

In a way passkey is 99% convenience. If a hacker would some how get your sms and password they can by-pass.

I think the point is that Passkeys are not supposed to be as precious as passwords. You're supposed to have a brand new one for every device/application combination. So they are just login cookies at this point, and haven't even come close to replacing passwords because you need to know your password to get a new passkey every time you log in.

Now, is that the official stance? I don't know; but it's _absolutely_ what every current implementation suggests the companies deploying this stuff want.

You can make passkeys better. Like me, you can install a well-funded password manager (well-funded, because it needs the engineering effort behind it to keep up with the ever-changing passkey apis on every platform in the world; screw up and oos, can't log in today!). Then you have one passkey per remote service, and just have to make sure 1password is _always_ installed and perfectly integrated. Easy!

Notwithstanding the danger of having everything on a single platform, the Apple passkey works great. Sign into one and you’re signed in everywhere and you can share passwords with others.

I use bitwarden[0]. It covers all cases and devices in question.

As a bonus, I self host using the open source vaultwarden[1] server implementation, which is packaged in alpine linux.

[0] https://bitwarden.com/ [1] https://github.com/dani-garcia/vaultwarden

>If I accidentally set up a passkey on my phone (let’s say I use Safari one day instead of my go-to, Brave), can I still log in without that passkey on other devices?

Yes, but you can also add the passkey to your password manager so it's available on all your devices.

>Can I add another passkey on another device?

Yes.

>How many passkeys can I set up for a particular site/app?

I haven't really seen a specified limit on any sites, but also if you're using a password manager it's only 1 passkey for all your devices anyways.

> For now, I’m going to stick with LastPass and use Passwords; because no matter whether I lose my device or not or whether I’m on my own devices or not, I can be sure I’ll be able to get into a site/app.

Your passkeys would be in LastPass as well like your passwords, so arguably the same result regardless of which you use.

>Edit: One final consideration, my spouse and I share user/name passwords for some things (notably Pandora and our Amazon Prime account) since they don’t handle things like family logins well; how do both my wife and I use amazon or Pandora with passkeys? Do we each set up passkeys? How do I get her Pass if that’s not an option?

If it was me I'd add a second passkey to my password manager for your wife under a new entry, and share that entry to her lastpass account.

Or if she's not on lastpass, you could just copy the data from the passkey over to whatever she does use.

For me, it is "how many passkeys can I have for the same site?", and "how do I revoke them?"

Worse, I'm still using LastPass -- but migrating over to Chrome password storage as it syncs between phone and laptop. LastPass doesn't give you the option to not use it for passkeys. It might be the thing that causes me to finish the migration away from it.

I find it abjectly terrifying. Like if I log into your site with a Passkey what happens if my device breaks? What if some big tech company decides to nuke my account for no good reason?

I can't speak to all of your browser combinations, but most desktop browsers can present a QR code when logging in with a passkey. I keep my passkeys in a password manager synced between my phone and personal computers. On my work computer, where the password manager is not installed, I can still use passkeys by scanning the QR code with my iPhone's camera app.

Totally in the same boat, passkeys seem to massively increase the risk that I will lose access to my data.

You can store your passkeys in Bitwarden or Keepass vault. Then you can use them through Bitwarden or Keepass apps on any other device. Been using passkeys like this for several years, and it works pretty seamlessly. With Keepass vault, I even have an offline copy as backup.

(small parenthesis, please consider to _not_ use lastpass given they have had so many security incidents https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LastPass#Security_incidents )

> If I accidentally set up a passkey on my phone (let’s say I use Safari one day instead of my go-to, Brave), can I still log in without that passkey on other devices?

N=1 and I'm sure I'm holding it wrong, but I can only log in to ADP to request PTO from my personal laptop because I set up an iCloud passkey, work laptop does not allow access to iCloud keychain, and you can't request PTO from mobile.

Answer to almost all of your questions is that it entirely depends on the service what kind of auth implementation they offer. I personally have completely adopted passkeys and use them with every service that allows it.

I use ProtonPass and have made it the default password store on every device and browser. This way all passkeys get stored in proton and I can login from any other personal device with proton setup.

Same. I'm a tech professional, and I don't set up passkeys for similar reasons. I log in to online services from a lot of different devices and browsers. I use a password manager but the keys to the kingdom (my email password) exists only in my head.

I don't know the exact tech behind it, but for a phone passkey I get a QR code on my laptop screen to scan with my phone, I accept it, and it logs me in.

The thing I find burdensome is managing all the keys in a secure way. I think I would want a hardware token to store the keys on, have separate keys for every site, need to back up my keys onto a second token in case the first one is lost, etc. It gets burdensome. At least with passwords you can store them in various ways that are not hardware or software dependent.

I use ProtonPass and afaiu it just syncs the passkeys private part everywhere you need it. So it “just works”. This is better than just old fashioned credentials because the passkey only “triggers” on the correct domain, so they can’t be phished by other domains… Right?

Not sure about lastpass, but you can save passkeys to 1password. Works just fine.

I’ve just been operating under the assumption passkeys are gonna lock me out unrecoverably in some way at some point, and have been avoiding them for anything important while allowing them for low-value accounts so they’ll stop nagging me.

I hate that I can’t just put a value in a plain text file somewhere (encrypted, let’s say, to preempt the inevitable and low-value response) and rely on that to work when I need it on any device and interface that can accept keyboard input.

Copying / syncing passkeys between password managers is still work in progress, but you can usually work around it by making multiple keys. For important websites, I recommend saving additional passkeys to Keychain, etc, as backup, assuming the website allows that. (It should, but some websites might not have a good implementation.)

Also, nothing says you have to delete passwords (or alternate means of logging in) if you already have them set up. Having multiple ways in will help prevent lockout.

I save all my passkeys in Bitwarden and they sync across devices.

I recognize the point of your post is more about the lack of clarity and details around passkeys. That's real, and I don't really have an answer for that - other than, I think maybe the quest for making them simple and "just work" has maybe made them nebulous enough that we've wound up in the current situation where a lot of even technically savvy people don't really understand them. But I feel like answering your questions might sort of help explain why that's the case, so I'm going to take a stab at it:

> If I accidentally set up a passkey on my phone (let’s say I use Safari one day instead of my go-to, Brave), can I still log in without that passkey on other devices?

Assuming you have LastPass set up to be an iOS password manager, and it fully supports iOS' passkey implementation: when you create a passkey in Safari, it will ask you if you want to store it in LastPass or in the iOS Passwords app (previously known as iCloud Keychain). If you say LastPass, then it's up to them, but I assume it'll sync to all your devices - it's how 1Password works. If you were to accidentally say Apple Passwords, it'll sync to all your Apple devices automatically, and you can either use Apple's password browser extension on Windows, or you can use the "another device flow" I'm about to detail.

> Is there a way to ensure that passkey can be used on other devices?

As mentioned above, passkeys are intended to sync via your password manager of choice as the primary use case. If for any reason you don't have that passkey synced to that device, _and that passkey is on a mobile device with a camera_, most browsers will give you the option to scan a QR code with your phone. This kicks off a flow that will authenticate you via your phone's biometrics or passkey, then use Bluetooth to first ensure device proximity and then handle the authentication exchange. In the case of iOS, this includes any passkey-supporting password manager, so the passkey itself can be in 1Password; it doesn't have to be in the iOS password system for this to work.

When I first read the above, my hackles were raised given how well Bluetooth operates at times; but every time I've used it so far, it's been fast and flawless. Still, I can see a lot of scenarios where this might not work - e.g., the first one I thought of was a public computer at a library where Bluetooth might be locked down; corporate computers or remote servers could also be troublesome. As far as I know, passkeys don't yet have answers to those scenarios; other than to just use your password + 2FA as you would without a passkey.

As far as I know, both of the above apply to every passkey-consuming site.

> Can I add another passkey on another device? How many passkeys can I set up for a particular site/app?

This touches on your last paragraph, where it indeed could change based on the website. In my experience, every website where passkeys are fully supported - e.g., not ones that are using passkeys as a substitute for FIDO/U2F keys - has let me add multiple passkeys and have not _appeared_ to have a limit. I typically will create a passkey in both 1Password and Apple Passwords just to have a backup, and I can't recall any cases where that's been a problem. Still, I can't say for sure that isn't a problem on any website.

I went all in on trying passkeys when they started to be an option, and I don't have any notable regrets. For me, passkeys have generally worked well when the site is designed to use them well; and at no point have they been a _major_ hindrance. That isn't to say there are _no_ annoyances, though:

- Most websites that support passkeys tend to use them as a replacement for both the password _and_ 2FA, which makes them more convenient. However, a few - Amazon being the most notable I can recall - only use them as a second factor, which just makes them feel a little useless.

- A passkey can _also_ be used as the proof of identity, meaning you can log in in one fell swoop and don't need to enter a username or email address, which is IMO the best showcase for passkeys. Like above, this makes websites that ask you to enter an email address before letting you use a passkey also feel annoying.

- Most web browsers I've used support the QR + Bluetooth flow I mentioned above (otherwise known as Hybrid Transport or caBLE) without issue; Linux has been the odd duck out. Firefox doesn't seem to support it at all on Linux, and Chrome-based browsers do but sometimes are missing what they need and in that case don't show it as an option. Since I sync just about every passkey with 1Password this typically isn't a problem; the exception is the passkey for Apple Accounts, which Apple creates automatically, and (AFAIK) doesn't allow you to enroll your own. Apple Accounts are the only service I've found that does this, though.

- Some websites seem to only offer passkeys as an option if you're on a mobile device, or at least did so at the time of enrolling. eBay and PayPal I think are the two that jump out at me as having done this. Why they did it this way instead of simply detecting if the browser supported passkeys, I have no idea.

All of the above issues have gone down over time, so it's generally been a net decrease in friction over time. And, at least as far as I can recall, passwords themselves continue to be an option in every instance I've enrolled a passkey. So if you like your passwords, generally speaking, you can keep them :P

I’m 90% certain most of the push for passkeys is to prevent paid account sharing.

Why not use passkeys in LastPass? Then the passkey travels with you to your devices/apps.

oh good I thought it was just me who didn't understand them

You can add as many passkeys as you want and you can still have password logins too.

I'm using bitwarden, but it's possible to use passkeys from multiple devices and if it's not available for whatever reason, you can just login with username/password/token/biological probe/whatever you used before. As an example: GitLab gives you both options right from the start, so you can use whatever you fancy in that particular moment.

Passkeys basically MITM the 2FA process so that they can track and deplatform you with a single click across all your accounts.

The biometric verification also allows to confirm that a certain person is holding the device, and they can easily be matched to existing passport/travel databases.

Great system if the good guys have it, a bit problematic if it's abused by nepo kids to hide their crimes.

It’s really not that hard.

Most of your devices are in the Apple ecosystem and when you are prompted to create a passphrase it will ask you to put it in your iCloud Keychain. Boom, now it is available across all of those

This is how it will work for most people who don’t care about security and just casually use their devices. My boomer mom does this. It’s better than the notebook full of handwritten passwords she was using.

You have chosen lastpass and a multi-ecosystem environment with windows and multiple browsers on each. You have chosen complexity and this is not a limitation of passsphrases as they have been designed for a more common use case.

I use Linux and apple. I have chosen protonpass for my vault. I just tell my OS to save the passkey there and everything works pretty well. If not, my password is right there as fallback. It’s really not that hard.

these questions all have easy answers that could be quite easily discovered by simply trying to use passkeys, instead of trying to find reasons not to use them.