I don't like passkeys

Passkeys do marginally improve security against MITM and phishing attacks, but they are primarily for protecting the lowest common denominator from themselves: people who re-use passwords and/or don't use a password manager.

If you use multiple devices throughout the day, registering passkeys in all of these systems becomes a big headache with O(m*n) complexity, so putting the passkeys in a password manager is the only realistic solution. But this still breaks the login flow for a very common use case: how do I log in on a device that I don't own? With a password in a password manager I at least have the option of manually typing the password.

The biggest problem, though, is how users are pushed into it without any warning or knowledge of what they're signing up for. I've accidentally set up passkeys just by clicking an okay button a few times in the past and had to go back and figure out how to undo it after being blocked from login on another computer (which computer was I on again?).

The point about poor support for 3rd party managers is so frustrating. Because this is correct, that is the obvious solution for the normal user, but passkey implementations somehow do not know how to deal with it.

Amazon prompts me to create a passkey everytime I log in, even when I logged in with a passkey, because my passkeys live in Bitwarden rather than my OS or browser.

And the confusing mechanism hurts there too: I'm always a little bit afraid that i'm somehow more in danger because I keep them in a vault that's shared on all my devices rather than a TPM, because whenever the protocol is explained the "it can't leave your device" part is highlighted as the main source of the security, except.... mine obviously do leave my device, with the vault, so.....

While the technology itself may be great (I don't really know since I don't use them) it has been co-opted by the tech conglomerates as another form of isolating and walling off users into their ecosystems.

And honestly, nowadays, if tech companies are pushing really hard for something then that is an immediate red flag for me and it bears more scrutiny. One of those "if you see them running that way you run the opposite way".

Passkeys have a marketing problem where no one is able to describe simply what it is without having to use technical jargon. There's also the problem where each OS tries too hard in pushing this to the face of end-user

Just yesterday I was showing to a friend how I logged in my self-hosted forge with my own hardware key.

0 intermediary yet proper and convenient authentication. If that friend ate the key (which he didn't) I'd just use my backup key, a cheaper non biometric one.

I think it's not more popular because people don't care enough about security to buy actual keys, rely instead of 3rd parties that they don't actually trust, e.g. Microsoft, Google, etc then... complain it's not good enough.

Passkeys remind me of ipv6 in that they are a "solution" coming from the supply-side, without (apparently) having done any research in what motivates actual users (and what would motivate them to switch).

<<ducks>>

> By using passkeys, you gain better security against man-in-the-middle attacks but face the higher probability scenario of losing access to your accounts.

> Phishing through the standard login flow is eliminated by passkeys, but it creates a false sense of security. An account’s security is still dictated by the weakest recovery method: SMS, email links, security questions, and so on.

Passkeys are too strong and may cause account loss.

Passkeys are too weak and can be bypassed by account recovery.

YES. This exactly. I work across multiple devices, some of which are nonstandard/uncommon (Linux, Xiaomi China ROM, ...) and I've NEVER had passkeys work properly - yet everything constantly prompts me to add one. Even if they did work, I'd have to carry around hardware keys or register each computer separately. And the lack of backups if a device is lost/broken is definitely a larger concern for me than being phished of my TOTP keys.

I am conflicted with passkeys.

I actually prefer non-resident U2F in some ways. You don't have to store anything on your key, you are just signing requests. This is relevant where U2F/FIDO keys have limited slots for 'resident' keys.

In principle, it's great. You have one good password to remember for the average user, and that's enforced by their device's probably good enough security posture.

They are resistant to being phished and they won't reuse the same one everywhere. They then don't end up going from hunter2 to hunter2! everywhere.

But my experience for users is that they worry they are giving their biometrics to Amazon or whoever and so the UX just confuses them.

The certification aspect was new to me too last time passkeys came up. Sites can require that a given passkey has been certified.

The patchy support for them is also frustrating. MacOS does not support NFC FIDO/U2F. iOS does.

I continue to avoid passkeys but it's becoming an incredibly dense minefield. Certain sites try to trick me into adding one each time I log in and I have to be careful to dismiss the 1Password prompt, then dismiss the chrome prompt, then dismiss the OS-level prompt (all back-to-back). It's so incredibly user-hostile.

The author talks about the problem with using hardware keys, but they neglect to mention that many websites and apps simply do not allow the use of hardware keys! They will insist you use Apple or Google syncable keys. So after you have spent the money to buy 2 or 3 hardware keys, you find that they are not accepted.

From TFA: "Both Apple and Google want your identity anchored to their operating systems. The “happy path” on their devices is to use their synced passkey management tied to your Apple or Google account. If their automated systems decide one day to ban your account, you irreversibly lose access to all your passkeys used across all third-party accounts too."

This is, in my opinion, the most serious problem with passkeys. I'd like to adopt them, but this is a blocker.

Every time passkeys are brought up on HN it’s nothing but complaining and/or refusing to learn the basics about something new, but I’ve been switching to them on every site I can for months with literally no problems.

1Password everywhere, on iOS, Mac, and Windows. I’ve run into none of the issues elsewhere in the comments. Everything just works, including in-app logins.

Maybe your other password managers are just bad at implementing the right browser/OS hooks?

Passkeys are great in that its turning login support on websites into simple "autheticate your device to seamlessly login". My biggest gripe is that it seems Apple/Google are using this to consolidate control into their own password ecosystems and don't support password managers as a store for passkeys.

Do passkeys improve security posture for the average person, reducing the likelihood of them losing their accounts to fraudulent actors? Absolutely.

But they also introduce single points of failure, as the article points out. I can't even remember how many times I've had to help a family member recover their account or get confused when they can't sign in on a new device. It's incredibly frustrating that this flow is promoted as the default for so many services.

1password is the best solution I've found for the average person. It's not perfect (it's definitely more complex than writing down your passwords on a piece of paper or using the same password everywhere) but it's much easier than juggling yubikeys. I know so many non-technical staff members who prefer the OS or browser keys even if it means another account recovery is lurking around the corner.

Completely agree. I think the root of many of its issues is the inability to add a key that you don't currently hold. This prevents me from storing a backup key in a safe, for example.

I proposed an alternative scheme many years ago: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/343318317_Privacy-a... . By allowing "offline" keys you can also treat them as higher priority, and use them to revoke any lesser keys from attackers if your account is compromised.

It would also be nicer to get rid of usernames, but that's a fight against the data-gathering powers that we're unlikely to win.

That's why I just implanted my NFC passkeys. I've got one in my left hand and one in my right forearm. If I lose access to them, I have other, much larger problems.

They really are bad. Passkeys have turned out to be just another password that you cannot even memorize.

It's the stupidity of Service Providers to adopt passkeys in the first place.

As a service provider myself, I've evaluated and said "Nah" to passkeys - because it's simply increased Customer Service contacts I have to invest in, whenever a user changes or loses devices, or any of the hundreds of ways Passkeys are not portable.

And guess what, the Tech companies pushing this have zero liability for user login support or security breaches. It's always me. There is no need for me to work hard and spend CS contacts, to wall off my users to the OS or Browser vendor.

I'll simply do passwordless Email or SMS 2FA / Magic Links and own my users without the overhead of Customer contacts, thank you.

I love passkeys as a tech enthusiast with a password manager that can hang on to them but I don’t love them as a confusing user experience for the average joe.

I also don’t love how many websites and apps use them in stupid ways like using them alongside other 2FA or login methods when the passkey alone should be sufficient.

I'm was tempted to come in here and say "you're holding it wrong." But then I quickly realized that I had to spend weeks changing my behaviors and messing around with devices in order to get it to work correctly.

As someone who's OpSec puts swiss cheese to shame Passkey has been a godsend. My passwords are actually much better because of it.

I don’t like how tokens have gradually evolved from a secure 2F device that you carry with you (Yubikey etc) to a single factor “passkey” that’s built in to your computer/phone, or worse, a password manager with export capability.

It should always have remained a second factor device. It’s not impossible to teach people to use these, European banking did it for years. There’s just no will to do it.

I try to boycott passkeys due to built-in attestation feature in the standard. Not active now, but given how Google+Apple already use the passkey feature to lock you into their ecosystems, it is just a matter of time until their service will require that the passkey is attested from a non-rooted Google or Apple device. I think this will especially be true for Google to prevent AI scraping bots. Turning this on does not require anything, once passkeys are widely used, Apple, Google and Co. simply can flip a switch.

Personally I love passkeys and think it’s not deployed enough. It works great (for me anyways!) and it is SO MUCH better than “login with email” that is everywhere now.

Account lockout as the author mentions is the biggest risk on personal accounts.

Passkeys just make it harder/riskier.

I agree 100% i learned that my old school with whom I had linked to my windows computer and finished my degree with one day required passkeys rather than passwords on all devices. This force locked my windows PC back to passkey mode luckily I remember recovery account and got a passkey to work. But it took months to figure out why I had to use it. All the help board were said just click this button which was grayed out. Or set this register key which auto repopulated. It was an awful experience. I like my password as default

Surprised to see so much hate towards passkeys. I absolutely love them when I can use them with Bitwarden and my own SSO. Sucks when I am limited to hardware tokens like yubikeys.

I agree with all the points this articulates. I understand why for many users they are great. But I would prefer better acceptance and continuance of the simpler, unfishable, u2f simple hardware keys.

To guard against lockout, you need to be able to log in from multiple devices. But you don’t need to copy passkeys around to do that! Instead, generate a new one for each device. This is similar to setting up ssh by copying public keys, not private keys.

(Or since syncing passkeys usually works within ecosystems, you might just need a passkey per OS.)

Yes, thank you. Maybe I am getting old but password+yubikey/webauthn was really top UX.

If you have to use passkeys, try KeePassXC and KeePassXC-Browser. I used them to set one up for Amazon a few days ago, as Amazon now forces passkeys as of this month, at least for my account. It was relatively painless.

That said, I don't like passkeys either.

My thinking is that Passkey is an extremely good and, in theory, extremely easy solution to security, authorization, and login issues. The problem is that Google, Apple, and Microsoft have done a just horrendous job, and made it suck as much as possible.

They didn't want to cooperate, and they wanted to make passkeys transferable within you cloud account, while not cooperating with anyone or anything else. The result was that you have no predictable and stable pattern/protocol/interface, or even general description, for how, for instance, a website connects to the passkey or even a hardware key, if you wanted it.

We basically have all the browsers, the operating systems, and the password managers, all fighting over who gets to store and present the passkey. And everybody assumes that they are the only one that exists and actively tries to fight the others is they can.

The basic technology is really good and could work well, but the large asshole tech firms focused on self-interest and walled gardens and made it insufferable.

I didn't like the passkeys that were handled by Google and only worked on my phone. But now that most of them support bitwarden they are really convenient.

I went in expecting yet another screed about how passkeys were not issued by RMS in a FOSS encyclical, and therefore not only were they insecure, but they were also a morally bankrupt abomination. I was pleasantly surprised to read an actual thoughtful critique, albeit one I largely disagree with.

The author's assertion that the greatest risk to an individual is account lockout versus phishing or password harvesting is just not grounded in reality. I get phishing emails and SMSs daily. The criminal ecosystem running these campaigns is extremely active already and set to become even more so with LLMs. These campaigns are by far the biggest threat to normies.

Whereas account lockout happens most often with multiple failed password entries, which passkeys completely eliminate. I just don't know where this risk evaluation comes from.

The author also points out that even with passkeys, if you're able to also log in with e.g. security questions, you still have a much weaker security footprint for that account. This is true, but it's also true of a TOTP second factor. So I'm not sure what the criticism is here.

The exportability argument is a real weakness and something I'd like to see addressed. Passkeys don't have an equivalent for backup TOTP codes that you can just write down somewhere or trivially store yourself. But it probably wasn't in v1 because the people who designed passkeys figured that websites would not go all in on them immediately and would preserve other authentication methods, which is exactly what's happened.

Well I like them, as an option. I offer using passkeys and email interchangeably; if you lose one you can recover with the other. Passwords, SMS, TOTP are out for me.

Passkeys lock you into a third-party provider ecosystem that you really should be trying hard to avoid getting locked into. They also add a quantum safety risk. Stay away.

Passkeys are a great way for attackers to have a secondary login into your account (e.g. Outlook, Gmail, etc.)

Related: the UX is currently terrible. Every time I go to a website that has passkey flow, I'm presented with: - MacOS native UI; which I cancel; then I see - Bitwarden UI; which I cancel; then I see - Chrome UI; which I cancel;

Like, seriously?

They’re bad and I wish places would stop being so aggressive about them (I’m looking at you Amazon and PayPal)

I have said before, I'm personally not interested using "Something I have"/"device bound" as an authentication factor. I'm also not interested in the sync "workarounds" that store keys in the cloud.

People have replied it's possible to extract the private key, but it's not clear to me that that's usable (maybe it is I don't know). It's certainly not in line with what passkey devs want people to do and not do, so I'm not interested in "fighting" against the "flow" so to speak.

I'm happy with TOTP, as I can manage and use the codes where I want, under my control.

Ecosystem is not mature yet for individuals?

Probably hundreds of millions or even billion people have devices that support biometric auth. How is that not mature?

I like using passkeys in bitwarden from Firefox, I just wish it didn't popup a dialog that's usually behind the browser.

The experience is also junk if you're using a password manager, I have passkeys that I'm not sure if I saved to the OS manager or my password manager... mostly my fault but I enter passwords so many times a day it can be hard to stay on top of which UI I'm clicking yes in to store them.

Password managers are great IMO, I can use some absurdly long password, backup is reliable, I can use them across devices. For extra secure stuff 2FA works the same, I've got an app with codes I can easily back up and use from multiple devices.

Passkeys tend to obscure everything and take away a lot of control.

This is generally the same experience I've had.

Microsoft is especially poorly prepared for this - Often if you have a passkey, it will CONTINUE To ask you to create a passkey (a new and different one), and it may save it in a different place, which is infuriating.

Strong password + MFA is the way, and I don't see that changing.

I had to setup a Passkey recently and wanted to store it in 1Password and the experience was quite absurd.

I don't know who designed this or who thinks these are acceptable affordances, but it seem to be part of the same disingenuous push that's behind passkeys in general.

Is there a reason why passkeys couldn't be used in "expire-periodically" mode?

Eh. Not worth complaining about.

Passkeys work nicely, and I'll use them, in cases where I want decent security, but I don't consider them the "Philosopher's Stone" of regular end-user security. I think they are still a bit too "fiddly" for your average Joe[line].

Username and password was a predictable flow. Passkeys are just a small component in the modern obstacle race of logging in. Every few months a new credential or ritual to access your own resources .

Passkeys have made my life very easy. Especially using Proton Vault.

If you think passkeys aren't ready yet, blame the people implementing it on their platforms.

I've resisted passkeys for some of the reasons listed. I use third-party password managers, they're device/system independent, and I can export the data when I want to. I don't see passkeys as a big advantage, or perhaps I should say the bigger advantage isn't really for the _user_.

Of course, at the rate we see security failures everywhere, I'm not entirely convinced writing your passwords on post-it notes wasn't such a bad idea after all.