alt Hacker NewsThe Moat of Low Status
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Good lessons.
Over the past few years, I've managed to convince (and occasionally demonstrate) to my kids that "you'll be bad at anything new" and that they only way to get better is practice.
As a result, when other kids have made fun of them for failing, they rebut with "I've never done this before! I'll get better!" which is awesome.. being able to handle failure, acknowledge it as failure, and then figure out how to get better.
If you can get and hold onto that mindset, it's kinda awesome.
"Cate Hall is Astera's CEO. She's a former Supreme Court attorney and the ex-No. 1 female poker player in the world."
This article is countersignaling. It also happens to be directionally correct.
There is absolutely nothing low status about being present-day Cate Hall. But present-day Cate Hall probably tried and pushed through a lot of really tough stuff in part because yesteryear Cate Hall had this mindset. It so happened that she also had the talent to actually end up in impressive places.
The real lesson one should probably take from a person like this is that learning to eyeball your own strengths and weaknesses before you start down the long path of honing them is really important. If you are low status now but you have reason to believe you will become much higher status in the future by persevering, then persevere. If not...
There's some survivorship bias here. You often just end up looking like an idiot or being really bad at something. I agree that embarrassment shouldn't be a barrier but one should be aware of the flip side. "Putting yourself out there" mostly results in humiliation and rejection. Focusing on being thick skinned and resilient is maybe more important than imagining you just need to get over embarrassment.
If you try new things, you may go bankrupt, get laughed at or be humiliated in a much worse way, be regularly rejected or talked down to, etc. It's not just about being brave for a minute. And in the end you might never make it.
Related: During solo travelling whenever a thought crosses my mind to do something and my instinctual internal response is discomfort, I try to make myself do it - even if I feel awkward inserting myself or going back.
I've had so many awesome conversations with random interesting people every day during my trips thanks to this. I've gone places I'd otherwise not experience, all for the sake of exciting adventure and pushing my own bounds. The confidence that comes from this is significant.
Also, as a former remote software engineer of 3 years, it has been so energizing to socialize with people again. Best upper that there is.
Overall I like this framing. But I wanted to comment on this
> In poker, it’s possible to improve via theoretical learning.... But you really can’t become a successful player without playing a lot of hands with and in front of other players, many of whom will be better than you.
This is an interesting example because poker is a game that has existed for many years, and for most of those years everyone learned by doing and was terrible at it.
People who excel at things have typically done more theoretical learning than the average person. Doing is necessary, but it's rarely the main way you learn something.
Either you have a mentor who has already absorbed theory and transmits it to you in digested form, or you have to learn the theory yourself.
But most people get the balance between theory and doing wrong, and most people err on the side of doing because theory is harder and less instantly rewarding.
Very similar to the concept of the dip, explained in the book The Dip by Seth Godin
I asked Google to briefly summarize the concept:
> The Dip: It's a term Godin uses to describe the unavoidable and challenging period that occurs after the initial excitement of starting a new project, skill, or career, and before achieving success or mastery. This is the time when things get difficult, frustrating, and many people are tempted to quit
> Embracing the Dip: Instead of being discouraged by The Dip, Godin suggests that dips can be opportunities. They serve as a natural filter, separating those with the determination to persevere from those who are not truly committed. By pushing through the Dip, you can emerge stronger and potentially achieve greater rewards
Tangential related:
I learned in a class on design that you should work with what you already know.
If you don't know about colors, then do it in grey scale, if you don't know about that, do it in black and white.
The best ideas come from working with constraints.
While highly skilled designers/musicians/developers/writers/etc. do this despite being able to work outside of the constraints, a beginner can do it too. Sure, they can't choose the constraints as freely as a pro, but they can make work with what they got and it can lead to interesting results.
This is also a good way to approach new things without embarrassing yourself, as you don't try to impress with skills you don't mastered 100% yet.
I genuinely needed this piece today, specifically. Thanks for sharing it.
I've been trying to live more authentically in general these past few years, making tiny little inroads one step at a time towards being someone I've consciously chosen, rather than merely exist in a safe form that doesn't risk alienating others (or rather, in a form I don't perceive to alienate others - obviously I am not a mindreader). Think classic tech neutral outfits (jeans and neutral shirts, neutral shoes, neutral socks, the sole piece of color being the Pride band of my Apple Watch). OCD hurts the process of trying to live authentically, because it's doing its damndest to ensure I never encounter harm.
So last night, after coming down from some flower and watching the evening roll in, I decided to put on an outfit I'd put together. All sorts of bright colors: neon green and black sneakers, bright pink shirt, sapphire blue denim jean shorts, bleached white socks - and went for a walk. OCD was INCREDIBLY self-conscious that I would stand out (duh), court the wrong sort of attention, or somehow find myself in trouble...for wearing things I see everyone else wear without any issue whatsoever.
The moat is real, and the mind wants to build barriers to minimize perceived harms; for neurodivergent folks, it can be downright crippling. Wallflowering at parties, never gambling on colors or bold styles, never taking on new challenges for risk of failure. It results in a life so boring, sterile, and uninteresting - to yourself, and to others.
So...yeah. I got nothing to add other than my personal nuggets of experience. Really glad this piece came past on HN today, I think a lot of folks are going to enjoy its message.
In a similar vein, I’ve found helpful:
There’s a difference between pain and suffering.
This is true for emotions: feelings people often find uncomfortable (sadness, loneliness, fear) don’t have to make you miserable. You can just feel those feelings in your body, pay attention to what they’re asking you to pay attention to, and feel deeply okay about it all.
The same is true for physical sensations. Pain is loud so it’s really good at drawing our attention, but there’s a difference between noticing you’re hurt and getting upset about being hurt.
I flipped my bike a couple months ago and scraped myself up incredibly badly, but there wasn’t a ton of suffering involved.
The massive adrenaline shot left me shaking, I felt overwhelmed and like I wanted to cry, and the pain was very loud. But I laid on the ground for fifteen or twenty minutes and then walked the fifteen minutes back home. I wouldn’t call it fun, but it was totally okay.
(Nick Cammarata has a good Buddhist take on this: suffering is a specific fast, grabby movement you do in your mind called “tanha” and if you pay attention you can learn to do it less.)
I grew up in Scotland in the 90s, the high school I went to was ill equipped to deal with someone as wide as I am on the spectrums. I was put into the "retarded children" programs. I think this resulted in me always "knowing" I was the dumbest person in the room, and eventually as a survival mechanism I learned to, well... not care. All through college, my 20s and 30s, I always felt like the dumbest person in the room, but I didn't really care I just felt super happy to be in the rooms, and so I said whatever I wanted and asked whatever I wanted. Now that I'm older, I realize what a blessing this ended up being because I've always ended up in rooms full of incredibly brilliant people having decent amounts of money thrown my way to be in them.
Low status isn't so bad.
One thing that helps with this: getting old. You just stop worrying about what other people think of you. All the drama and gossip and cliquish behavior just gets so boring.
Why do you think old fat guys walk around naked in the locker room at the gym? They've certainly got nothing to show off, but they don't give a shit.
Everything is a remix.
Previous art: “ Willingness to look stupid” by Dan Luu.
https://danluu.com/look-stupid/
Precious discussion https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28942189
It is super important to have “no asshole zones”. We can joke about “safe space” like “South Park” did but at least not having your work shredded to parts with snarky comments goes far.
I started posting on LinkedIn this year. I was afraid all the time there will be assholes coming out of woods to just say “you’re an idiot take this post down” - it happened once in 6 months so not bad. Other asshole was reposting my stuff picking on the details basically making content out of me.
Blocking was effective and shadow banning is great as those most likely moved on not even knowing I blocked them.
A caveat that practice itself without reflection or deliberation does not necessarily lead to better outcomes. The author gives the example of poker, but a frequent poker player without knowledge of theory and without sufficient skepticism of optimality can easily learn suboptimal strategy.
Similarly, learning a sport (which must be done by practice and alongside conditioning towards the sport) without a good coach is risky with respect to safety and with respect to failing to learn the right thing.
It is a pretty good article, but it slightly misunderstands status. Being the first person on the dance floor is closer to a high status move, because it is taking a leardership position and suggesting what the group should do next. People avoid doing that because they want to copy someone of a higher status than themselves, not because they fear low status. The mechanism nature uses to implement that low status behaviour is nervousness which is often described as a fear of "standing out", "looking silly" or similar terms, but those are low status concerns. High status people don't really suffer from looking silly, they define what looking silly is by being what they don't do.
It's the typical advice coming from high status people. Reminds me of rich people glorifying minimalism because they can buy stuff whenever they need it and throw it away after.
Being truly low status isn't much fun.
Love the concept but “the moat of low status” is a poor name.
It implies a defensive structure. I.e the advantage I get out of low status.
Op even refers to the concept of moats as used in business, but clumsily hand waves the concept to fit her own.
The cage of low status would be more apt
I love this.
People have always asked me: Why don’t you have a big house or <status-symbol-x> or <status-symbol-y>?
My response is always: Because I could use that capital to try something new. Granted, there were a few times I wish I had the house because of the market bumps but stocks have made up for it.
People are scared of failing, scared of losing the precarious position they have built up over the years. The housing market has made that 10x worse with the prices but humans need to try different things, learn different things. You can’t just do one thing for 70 years. My father had 4 careers, 3 wives, 5 children throughout his lifetime. 2 degrees. I’ve had 1 wife, 1 child, 1 career, 1 degree, because the world is 100x more expensive now. This is what prohibits us from finding our ikigai.
The way I describe this idea is shamelessness is a super power
A few extra tricks that worked for me (you can alternate depending on what fits best in the moment):
- Embrace the role of imposter. Instead of whining about imposter syndrome, accept a-priori that you are an imposter. The game is to survive as long as possible as an imposter in a world full of naturals. You lose not when you are made out, but when you give up.
- Embrace being a useless git. You're an idiot, you have no talent whatsoever, you don't have the skill yet, and there's no hope you'll ever acquire it. So, no pressure, you're only playing. Anything beyond failing completely is a bonus.
- Commit to "open to goal". You are starting today and you'll go on for as long as it takes. Possibly until you die. There's no deadline and no expected speed. You're just being stubborn and refuse to stop trying even in the face of evidence that you have no chance.
- Be delusional about "the hack". You are special and you've discovered a hack that makes it easier and faster for you to acquire the new skill and apply it successfully than it is for most people. All you have to do is go through the motions, "the hack" will take care of things.
- Fight injustice. You are _entitled_ to have this skill and the success it affords people, it is your god-given, inalienable right. But the world / family / society / boss / ex / whatever screwed you and you've been deprived of what's rightfully yours. Fuck them, you are now on a quest to acquire by brute force what you deserve.
Great article. I’ve come to see that feeling embarrassed can actually be a kind of luxury. When I’m around people with disabilities—many of whom might simply hope to reach a point where embarrassment is even possible—it reminds me how much we take that experience for granted. In that light, embarrassment itself can feel like a privilege. It calls to mind 2 Corinthians 12:9: “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.”
I started the piano when I was 32. I'm not particularly good at it, I'll never play anything complex, but I love playing and I do my best. My teacher forced me to play in public at some point, and that was probably one of the best things he did, to get me past the point of caring.
That made me realize: no-one cares. You're the center of your life, and it's very important that you succeed, but the very few people who care about you (and whom you should care about) will have the patience, empathy, and admiration for you to be in that "moat", everyone else won't give a shit. If you fuck up, they'll forget about you in a minute. Try to remember about someone trying to do something you like but badly? You can't.
Whenever I see a public piano I seat at it. Sometimes it's just shit and I'm the only one happy I can press keys. Sometimes I manage to play a piece, and a random couple of people are happy about it.
This is a great article, follow its advice. The definition of low status is only the one you set for yourself. Push the shame and embrace it. No one cares anyways
the math version of this idea: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41566446
A more feelings-ey take on the common "get comfortable being uncomfortable" type advice. I enjoyed the perspective shift.
Based on her profile picture I find it extremely hard to believe anyone made fun of her appearance unless one is being compared to a super model.
I love the repeated phrase, '...and the world wouldn’t turn to ash.'
The real moat of low status is something completely different.
It consists on punishing people with low status when they objectively succeed and doing so brutally if they excel.
This entire post sounds like the complaints of someone with extreme privilege that lived a completely sheltered life.
In fact, the title of this blog, "Useful fictions", plays exactly into that.
Scott Galloway talks about this same concept here
You have "social anxiety." You are not in a "moat of low status." The status is purely in your own mind and not something calculated and assigned to you by the world.
Another CEO flying at 30,000' missing the forest for the trees.
It comes down to pride and an insecure or poorly formed conscience.
Obviously, you are going to be bad at something when you begin. What did you expect? Know it, accept it, and don’t pretend otherwise. Who expects a beginner to be good? And why are you afraid of someone, I don’t know, laughing at you or being condescending? What kind of prick would do that unless they were envious of your courage or insecure in their own abilities?
The fact is that many people spend their entire lives putting up appearances, and with time, it becomes harder and harder for them to do anything about it, because the whole facade of false identity would have to crumble. They live is a state of fear of being outed and shamed. This is a recipe for mental illness.
This matter situation reminds me of the parable about the Emperor’s new clothes. The boy’s potency comes from stating the obvious. You find something similar in professional life: the person who is like that boy in a room full of posers and blowhards is a threat to pretense, because he states the obvious. In that way, he is more in touch with reality, even if it is at such a basic level. This is a great catalyst for change in an organization, if the insecure and prideful don’t dig in their heels.
The truth will set you free, and where there is good will, there is no fear. And learn to endure suffering.
The moat is filled with people pointing at you and yelling 'Don't quit your day job'
I know a lot of people as described in this post, but it's never been an issue for me. I'm much more concerned about earning status, then embarrassing myself. I remember when I first started BJJ I was getting crushed, but it was still fun. But once I had been doing it for a year getting submitted stung bad because I should have known better. In the end I think the advice about accepting embarrassment is still good, because if you're pushing yourself and trying to perform at a high level you will never stop failing and embarrassing yourself.
I agree. I used to live high class. Then the Mafia came at me. I learned to lay low and appreciate poverty. Also, my ex and I bought a house, but then a richer man came and she kicked me out on Valentine's day. Now I despise wealth and luxury and now date only women at the flea market, cashiers and walmart stockers. Highly recommend. The devil wears Prada.
Tangentially, I've been applying something similar, but actually thinking of it as the privilege of high status.
As a very senior member of my team, which has a lot of new college grads, I've been asking the "dumb" questions, the "irritating" questions, intentionally speaking up what I believe others may be thingking, specifically because I figure I can afford the social (career) hit.